To think MN has a race problem and it’s getting worse

[MovingOutofZone2]

Posters say incredibly offensive, often outright racist things and MN lets them stand as it’s a ‘difference of opinion’ and that’s fine. Other posters complain about this and MN deletes said complaints as they are ‘personal attacks’ and that isn’t fine.

Then we have mods wandering in and going ‘let’s have peace and love’, as though ‘both sides’ need to calm down. No, we need to stop placating racists.

I’m not going to give examples as this will get taken down as a TAAT, but I cannot be the only person to be fed up with all this. MN needs to do something about the racism, race baiting and general cultural ignorance. Unless the site is ONLY meant to cater to white people and, even then, I firmly believe that most posters of any race don’t want to see all that ugliness.

It’s getting to the stage where, as a Black person, I’m steeling myself before I log on. And knowing that half the time I report a comment, I won’t even get a token acknowledgement. This isn’t right. It wasn’t always like this.

What is racism?
Collins: Racism is the belief that people of some races are inferior to others, and the behaviour which is the result of this belief. Racism also refers to the aspects of a society which prevent people of some racial groups from having the same privileges and opportunities as people from other races.
Other dictionaries define it in a similar way.
So there was nothing racist in Lady Hussey's questioning.
The problem arises when people put their own meaning on to people's words and opinion becomes fact. The current thinking that just because someone believes something to be true means it is is nonsense.
People are terrified of speaking to one another for fear of causing offence where none was meant.
In this case, Ngosi Fulani went to BP dressed in cultural clothing to promote a charity which exclusively supports women of African and Caribbean heritage. Yet when someone asks where she is from is accused of 'abuse'.
There are many - myself included - who just don't have a clue what's acceptable and what isn't.
I was listening to a radio programme recently when the presenter visited a cooking scheme run by a Caribbean women fir Caribbean women and the whole programme was around white people not understanding or being curious about Caribbean culture.
So how can we be curious and ask when do do so is deemed offensive?
Genuine question. The nuances of perception are lost on most people who just won't bother to speak for fear of being accused of racism.
There is, a lot of outrage on this thread but not much actual debate. People seem to think that closing down debate is the answer - it isn't. Rational debate about actual racism rather than people's perceptions of how they feel would help. People are too quick to press the outrage button now and woe betide anyone who dares disagree.
'

And I fully expect an answer or two telling me I am part of the problem, if I can't see how racist my post is I am a very bad person etc etc but no debate at all

So how can we be curious and ask when do do so is deemed offensive?
Genuine question. The nuances of perception are lost on most people who just won't bother to speak for fear of being accused of racism.

I agree with this.

I also found what Inaya Folarin Iman said about it on Twitter very insightful:

There is a fundamental crisis of good faith and generosity. If we are to live in a diverse society, misunderstandings, slights and faux pas are inevitable. How we respond to them will be the difference between a tolerant and cohesive society or a paranoid and fractured one.

I think that the point about good faith is important one. If we interpret ever single comment in the worst possible way, then no wonder we are in such a mess. I generally assume people I am speaking to are well intentioned and reasonable, as most people are.

Oh, so you can’t recognise racism without help?

You are quite right, there is also a really nasty transphobic element in MN too.

Well for a start maybe don’t lecture people on what racism means if you have to look it up the dictionary…

YANBU

Unfortunately AIBU especially is the most active board, many posters on here are the same demographic as those posting on the daily fail (older and white)

There is a reason BMN had to be created, which tells you all you need to know

It’s not an element

The site at this point is underpinned by anti trans sentiment

Its why many advertising agencies have put MN on their reputation risk lists over the last few years.

@Katypp @thewriteradmitsthat I wonder if you’re familiar with the concept of ‘othering’? What wasn’t in good faith or generous was the repeated questioning of where M’s Fulani was “really” from. She answered that she was from Hackney. When asked what part of Africa her family was from, she replied that she didn’t know as no records were left. Despite that she was questioned again.How is that polite or respectful? How is that not showing someone that despite being born in the UK and British, they are still an ‘other’?

@Mirabai and bingo!
Supercilious insults with no substance whatsoever. Can you explain to me how either or your comments goes any way towards widening the debate?

This is whataboutery though. If your knowledge of history doesn't extend to understanding how global power, wealth, language dynamics, medical fallacies and race relations has roots in the transatlantic slave trade and the beneficiaries thereof, that's for you to study. I suggest you start with Cromwell's treatment of the Irish and the propaganda of othering and maybe glance at how the British behaved in India, despite officially stopping slavery. You might glance at opium addiction in China and economic imperialism in the traditional colonies as well. And even if you don't agree that this places our history of race relations in a completely different category to your tired and cliched false equivalences of Barbary pirates, Arab traders and (ffs) Romans, it still doesn't excuse treating folk differently purely due to your prejudices regarding the colour of their skin.

What is insulting about my post - I simply stated a fact.

I’m baffled as to how you think parading your ignorance contributes to debate.

I agree with this. Ngozi Fulani was asked where she was from and she replied that she was from Hackney. That should have been the end of it, but pressing her for a more detailed answer was, at best, rude and intrusive and, at worst, racist. If she had encountered a white woman in this situation, would she have pushed for an origin story in the same way? I don't think so somehow.

It still doesn't excuse treating folk differently purely due to your prejudices regarding the colour of their skin.

You have no evidence whatsoever of how I treat people or of my "prejudices". I was making a point about the wisdom of demanding that people "face up to" the actions of the people in the past. I'm interested in what this might look like and involve, and how it might meaningfully have a positive impact, rather than seeding further discord and division.

You're being deliberately ignorant to the point of the post.

Specifically, "So how can we be curious and ask when do do so is deemed offensive?
Genuine question. The nuances of perception are lost on most people who just won't bother to speak for fear of being accused of racism."

If you're going to engage with every post you disagree with, you'll do more of a service to the debate of the issue by intelligently giving your insight on the actual point, instead of trying to make the poster look stupid.

But her charity exclusively supports women of African and Caribbean heritage.

Perhaps the purportedly racist reactions to the Lady SH incident are actually a reaction to the contradictory stances of working exclusively with people of a particular heritage whilst stating that it is "violence" to be asked about your own heritage, which was obviously what Hussey was trying to do albeit in a way which was very clumsy and ill- advised.

I know that heritage is not to be conflated with nationality and that this the point that Fulani was making but I still think it's better to interpret conversational interactions in good faith.

Perhaps read her post a bit more thoroughly. If she had simply asked the question: So how can we be curious and ask when do do so is deemed offensive? she would have elicited a different response. But, even on that score she lives in a multicultural country - how hard is this stuff to figure out?

When I first read about Ngozi Fulani I did think that the line of questioning was insulting and upsetting. But then on further reading and reflection, someone turning up in full national dress is likely to be asked about it, same as if I turned up to the Palace wearing a full Scottish outfit, representing a charity for Scottish people. If I said I lived in London, I'd still expect people to assume I had Scottish roots.

It's similar to the Danny Baker MM monkey thing. My first thought was "wow, that's racist", but then on further reading it turned out he'd being doing the same thing to numerous celebs for years, and it was nothing to do with skin colour.

The media are always looking for a cheap story, and don't care about the facts. This doesn't detract from the fact that Black people are marginalised and suffer as a result of institutional racism every day. The problem is that the media go for the sensational story, rather than the everyday nitty-gritty. This invariably gets people talking, which is why you get a difference of opinions.

If the aim is to have a positive impact, then why not listen to how that persistent questioning made someone feel? Why not ask people how being othered impacts their life? Or do people of colour have to do all the work and interpret ‘persistence’ as ‘good faith’ and offence as ‘clumsiness’?

I don't need to read it again to understand you're totally uninterested in engaging with genuine questions and giving insightful comments. According to you the only way to get any meaningful response is to have a specific script on how posts and questions should be posed. What a disservice to the debate, and what a shame.

• She was wearing a leopard print dress and a cardigan. For what African country is that ‘full national dress’?
• She wasn’t asked about her outfit, she was asked where she was from, she answered and then was further interrogated, because the answer wasn’t to Lady Hussey’s liking.
• This sort of thing and it’s dismissal as ‘a difference of opinion’ is the everyday nitty gritty that constitutes institutionalised racism.

Britain is racist though most people within it don't want/intend to be so.

(It is not the only place that is... even without the divisions created by slavery, humans in groups tend to look for opportunities to 'other' and reject people who differ from an 'in' group.)

We are mostly willingly part of a fight against racism. We do have some good laws here and social pressures against it. We have education.

It is also a good thing to have a site like this where people's unthinking acceptance of the wide variety of racist attitudes/assumptions is challenged - daily.

(Being a fighty site means that it is instantly pointed out when lazy stereotypes are used and when subtle racism slides into a discussion -whatever the original subject.)

I haven't seen anyone supporting Lady SH 's behaviour. (This is a change from a generation ago when questions like hers we're a regular experience.)

Her rudeness (and ugliness behind it) is being talked about and that opens up the subject for those of us living where racism is not an everyday experience.

This. I think the mods do a good job. I don’t always agree with their decisions but I can see their logic.

People are supporting her behaviour on this very thread. There are multiple threads on MN right now, with people arguing her case. If you’ve missed all of this, then you’re not paying attention.