To be utterly fed up of what UK workplace culture has become?

[ExpectationManagementCharm]

I'm a middle manager in a large UK firm. I am not a new manager; and I'm not young, late 30s. I am generally perceived to be at the "laid back"/supportive end of the management spectrum (but I'll fight tooth and nail for one of my team if I think they're being asked unreasonable stuff/being treated unfairly).
However, I'm tearing my hair out at being at the "crunch point" of upper level expectations to get on and deliver stuff vs. how my more junior employees expect to work these days. I'm so exhausted and getting no support from anyone. I can no longer see if it's just my workplace or the norm.

Example1: Junior staff expecting to not dial into team meetings beacuse of trivial reasons - some of which are downright unprofessional (i have my weekly run with a PT booked then- but this is within normal work office hours e.g. 2pm on a Thursday). While my HR policy states that I need to be "flexible" for personal reasons, which means I then need to follow up separately with that person each time. Result - less work for employee, HR is happy, senior management say no problem, more work for me.

Example 2: Junior staff (especially our newly graduated colleagues) expecting to be able to get out of (reasonable) work deadlines by using the word "anxiety" all the time. "I couldn't deliver a client item/I was feeling anxious" (meaning I had to pull an all nighter to get it finished to meet our deadline). I try and escalate to HR - but I need to be "understanding". Result - employee's piss poor performance slides, HR are happy, senior management say no problem (because client delivery didn't suffer), I get to work an all nighter to cover the gap.

These are multiple examples, across lots of team members over the last ~ 5 years, but it's definitely got worse over the last year or so. The concept of "my word is my oath"/reliablility seems to have completely gone out of the window.

Yet my employer's HR team just turn it back on me as a team manager to manage, leading to more work, which means I just have another thing to do.

I'm currently pursuing performance improvement plans with 2 of my team at the moment, whose hiring i was not involved in, and i'm going mad trying to fit in what HR expect (to follow the process) alongside juggling my own actual workload. I'm not just a people manager, yet HR seem to think i have free time to spend doing delicate, intensive people management activity, despite my already crushing workload.

Does anyone else recongnise this or is it time to look for a new employer?

FWIW, i love my team (in general) but the recent piss taking has really taken its toll - I feel like no one at work has my back at all.

If they're on flexitime and paid for a PT session, I can understand why they might be a bit miffed to potentially be out of pocket for a non refundable slot, especially if the meeting request was relatively last minute.

However, the rest of it sounds like piss taking tbh. I wouldn't be doing an all nighter. I'd let it fall over once it twice to highlight the issue.

I've been there before with a team of ten where only me and one other woman didn't have kids. We'd always be left finishing stuff off when the others went to pick up the kids (usually claiming they'd log on later but then never doing so).

We eventually decided we had our own plans and let a few projects crash and burn in the knowledge nobody could blame us as we'd done literally 80% of the overtime hours the previous two years.

I agree too.

I work in the construction sector where most start work in their teens and have several years experience by the time they're of uni leaving age. They defo seem far less snowflakey and mollycoddled.

If you want to use mental illness as a reason not to or to do something, the person paying you has every right to see proof of your condition. As for "undiagnosed" conditions because the person won't or doesn't think they have anything wrong with them are still undiagnosed conditions and, in a work sense, deserve some proof if the employee is saying they are unable to commit to their duties.

I lived with undiagnosed severe clinical depression for MANY years before having a complete breakdown, because back then it was "very embarrassing" to suffer from a mental health condition. It also took an involuntary commitment for me to come to terms with the fact that I had bipolar disorder and agree to be medicated before I either killed myself or ruined my life completely. I have also seen many psychiatrists and psychologists through the years, so I'm very familiar with the mental health rigmarol.

I am not diminishing anyone else by stating my experiences. I am simply saying that the mental health issue has now spawned a separate issue in that people are self-diagnosing and using it as an excuse for poor behaiour. Not just in the workplace.

As far as treating mental health conditions with something other than medication, this will categorically NOT work for anyone other than those who have very mild conditions. When I'm in a manic phase, I would be a huge danger to myself if I was unmedicated. I know this because in the years before I accepted my bipolar diagnosis, I had several accidents that nearly resulted in my death (all caused by me thinking I was invincible). If a person's brain isn't firing properly, nothing but chemicals will sort it out, unfortunately.

Sorry, that was to DarkKarmaIlama

I lived with depression for many years though once I realised I had a problem I went to see my GP, was diagnosed and put on meds.

If people can recognise that they have a MH condition enough to use it as a reason why they can't function properly in the office, then surely they should be seeking professional help. If they are trying to self manage and that works, excellent. But if the condition is still causing problems, then maybe it's the time for them to do more.

What is NOT reasonable is to cite MH and do absolutely nothing to manage it but expect to have allowances made.

My brother and I both have ADHD, diagnosed very late in life (50 for him, 60 for me). I take the prescribed meds, and it makes a massive difference. My brother is currently self managing and is luckily able to have made a difference, though he is also considering going onto the meds as his methods aren't in his view helping quite enough. If either of us had a problem at work caused by the ADHD, we could discuss with our managers/HR/OH and see if there are any reasonable adjustments that could be made (brother has done this to good effect).

It sounds like what you are saying is that to get the junior staff to do their jobs you need to get tougher/accept fewer excuses, but that if you do that HR will come down on you for not being "understanding." I'd say you should prioritize your need to get the job done on time without having to pull all nighters to cover the junior staff's laziness over any complaints you get from HR. If you are asked about it, tell them in simple terms the unfair crunch you are in between senior management and junior staff. Don't apologize or go into more detail. If they give pushback, repeat what you said as many times as necessary.

It sounds really annoying but tbh you are the manager. That's your job and why you're paid a lot more than non managers.

That's the whole point of a manager and the higher salary you get.

He could look to do both an apprenticeship with day release or evening study with a University.

This is not a new problem regarding lazy or work shy staff. 20 years ago I was FE Lecturer, middle manager and I just couldn’t get one particular teacher to do her job, she just sat in class doing the minimum. It escalated and other staff blamed me for the lack of leadership. I left but still feel bitter.
Hope you have better support.

*but people absolutely can be living with quite severe depression and anxiety without ever having stepped foot in a doctors surgery to discuss it. Additionally there are people in society who hear voices and have not disclosed this info to their doctors. Doesn’t make their experience any less real than yours.

Some people are actively against medication and manage their MH in a whole myriad of ways that does not include medication. Meds are only one way of treating a condition and they are not at the top of a some hierarchical system whereby if you don’t take them you don’t suffer*

If you’ve got serious debilitating depression you’d take medication believe me. You’d need a sick note for a start, so you’d have to set foot in a GP’s office. It’s like being swallowed by a black malevolent cloud and doesn’t respond to yoga/exercise/ healthy eating🙄. If it’s severe you are desperate to get away from it. Why do you think people kill themselves? If you don’t set foot in a doctors it’s because it’s not bad enough.

I dunno, I mean it sucks if you're not afforded the same "benefits" by your own managers, but I can't help but feel that we'd all be better off with a workplace culture and staffing level that allows us all to take guilt-free time for things like physiotherapy, exercise or mental health breaks during the working day.

Good to hear that most peopmm on s still think my anxiety is made up and I’m not only a piss taker, but am weak, lacking moral fortitude AND without resilience

But wait, I’m a geriatric millennial/baby gen x. So maybe that doesn’t apply to me?

For gods sake. Be a better human, would you?

@ArseInTheCoOpWindow totally agree with you.

If people say they can manage their depression without seeing a Dr then in my opinion it's not bad enough to be off work.
I didn't tell anyone how bad my depression was. I off work for months and tried suicide thankfully I failed as I'm now on meds and in a better place.

But I never used it as an excuse to get out of doing something I didn't want to do in work.

That's just lazy and selfish on the people who have to pick up the pieces.

Op needs to get a bit tougher with the people working under them.
They are just taking the piss in my opinion.

@LovePoppy I don’t think anyone was saying anxiety and depression aren’t real. But there’s a difference between a genuine medical condition and going sick with “anxiety” or taking a mental health day when you’ve fucked something up or can’t deliver, dumping a pile of work on someone else and using mental health as an excuse. If anything, this makes it more difficult for people who really do suffer from anxiety or other mental health issues.

@ArseInTheCoOpWindow

Not necessarily. People have really quite a narrow view about what is an acceptable form of depression. You can be severely depressed and still be able to get out of bed in the morning. For some people they absolutely need to go to work in order to stabilise themselves.

I have twin uncles who both have auditory hallucinations. One has been diagnosed with bipolar and the other one has never once set foot inside a GP surgery but spends his days working very long hours self employed and running marathons in his spare time. He nearly killed himself once though when he injured his ankle which stopped him from running. So you’re wrong, his depression is just as valid as his brothers it’s just his brother decided to take the biomedical route.

And of course people kill themselves…. And a lot of the time these people were functioning and going to work etc before they did it, so yes you can absolutely be suffering for many, many years without stepping foot into a GP surgery AND still be getting out of bed in the morning with a fake smile across your face each day. A lot of people fall into that bracket. It’s not the depression Olympics you know, mental health is very complex.

Well l’ve yet to meet anyone who has dealt with severe depression without medication. And I’m 59,

Thr auditory hallucinations must be benign if they can be coped with. And as for bipolar, l think it affects people close to the person as well as the person. He may be coping with it, how do the rest of his family feel?

l had to go to work with severe depression but l was on medication.

l don’t accept it sorry. Depression however it presents is about withdrawing, isolating and losing motivation. If it’s severe where you feel depersonalisation and the inability to maintain eye contact, lack of motivation. plus can’t stop crying, then you don’t just ‘deal’ with it.

Deptrssion is an evolutionary thing designed to keep people out of the hunter:gatherer thing and inside the back of the cave where they were safe. This was so if all the hunters were killed there were still people available. It isn’t meant to be dealt with by going to work and pretending it doesn’t exist. It’s there to protect you from taking risks.

I'm also a team manager in operations, in my 30s, so I can definitely understand some of your gripes. Something that helped me and my team was coming up with a team charter. It outlines behaviours/values we all agreed on and how we will display them and hold each other accountable for not doing so. I would also recommend some team bonding exercises. Sounds cheesey but I will say that my team are extremely respectful of me and are high performing. It can help them understand that while the end goal is important, how you get there as a team is equally so.

It could be worth reiterating your expectations of them. I would just be honest with them and say while we're a flexible workplace, here are some of my current challenges and the impact they're having, so let's all agree on a time for meetings where we can all attend, as that structure will go some way to helping. If your team respect you they would want to support you. Your natural leadership style is hands-off but sometimes you need to be authoritative and take control, particularly when you're not getting results. I will help my team when they need it but I expect the same in return, its a two way relationship.

I would also have a chat with your boss about what your expectations are of them in terms of support for you.

Either the above advice, or your workplace culture is not aligned with your values, which unfortunately you won't change.

@ArseInTheCoOpWindow

You haven’t met them because a lot of people don’t confide in anyone about the severity of their mental health. His voices are neutral and negative depending on his stress levels and he chooses not to take meds, they are certainly not benign voices.

His brother does take meds and is stable on them but is now severely overweight due to his antipsychotic meds. He’s had a few inpatient admissions over the years but now has diabetes etc due to being so overweight . The other twin is very slim due to all of his running. The family copes okay and is supportive as we have been surrounded by mental Illness in our family so it is somewhat the norm. Our own Nan had schizophrenia (regular inpatient). One auntie died by suicide after what appeared to be a successful life and certainly no GP visits, a big shock! My own mother and one of my aunties trained as MH nurses and have had successful careers in the field utilising their lived experience etc. My mum is retired now and is writing a book about her family and professional life working in MH.

Some people absolutely do need to go to work in order to help their depression. Tons of research on that now which is why the NHS have implemented the IPS employment role within mental health clinical teams. Some peoples depression absolutely spirals to very dangerous places when they are not occupied by work. They still feel depressed but the avoidance is a coping mechanism.

You don’t need to accept it I’m not asking you too, but not everyones depression manifests in withdrawn behaviour and an inability to get out of bed. Furthermore anti depressants don’t always work for some people and unfortunately stigma is still alive and kicking in society and many simply will not visit a GP for many years often with disastrous consequences.

You can be severely depressed and still be able to get out of bed in the morning. For some people they absolutely need to go to work in order to stabilise themselves.

Whilst I agree it doesn’t change the fact that if you are actually too depressed to come to work it’s fair your workplace gets confirmation from a doctor.

@LydiaBennetsUglyBonnet

I don’t disagree with that. If you’re off work with depression then your employer will need confirmation, and that will have to come via a sick note.

I was responding to a poster up the thread who said it’s not possible to go to work with depression, it was that I was disagreeing with as many people accomplish just that. A lot of people are very depressed and not taking medication.

I’ve noticed that people are very quick to invalidate other people’s experiences with mental Illness because it somehow didn’t match their experience. A bit like “oh you surely musnt have been as ill as me for I was unable to get out of bed etc etc”. It’s quite sad but you see it a lot on this site. People can certainly present atypically and we are nowhere near at the point where MH stigma has gone away and unfortunately many people are still suffering in silence whilst appearing to function from an outsiders perspective.

For anyone who is interested it is called major depressive disorder with atypical features,
often nicknamed “smiling depression”.

This is interesting. How did you put together the charter? What behaviours did you include on it? Did you do it collaboratively?

I like this idea. I had a boss who made a very simple slide to ask for certain behaviours and I don't think it went down well. So I think the how is very important

I have smiling depression. It’s quite common

I haven’t read the whole thread, but I have never in all my working life, thought I could get away with booking a personal non-essential activity at 2pm let alone on a weekly basis, and miss a work meeting because of it. Nor would this ever be allowed in my workplace. Tell that Gen Z person to move their “run” to another time, FFS.

The worst case of this sort of piss taking I have seen is when a man took extensive time off work (think months and months) because him and his partner were going through IVF. HR deemed it too sensitive a topic to demand proof of the treatment / a doctor’s note to say it had affected his mental health. It’s like he picked the one thing that he knew wouldn’t be challenged. The couple already had a baby, and this happened around the time his wife came off maternity leave, so I strongly suspect he was just trying to save on childcare by becoming a SAHD but staying on the payroll.

They don’t teach ‘common sense and how to contribute’ at school or University. We now suffering in the workplace for over pampering pupils. It’s weak teaching and weak parenting.
Then when at Senior School we teach ‘I’m a victim’
Then in the workplace it’s, “What you expect me to work and not be pampered?”.
The negative outcome is found in most workplaces. Society has produced so many badly trained people who genuinely don’t know how to work. (work is a fare days work for a fare days work) Any excuse is given not to word from it’s raining or it’s wet or it’s too cold or it’s too wet then it’s childcare, not forgetting the various health condition etc. Yet expect a pay packet!! Not all school leavers and Uni leavers are like this but the proof is that many many are.
Im sad when I read managers are having production issues but unfortunately not surprised.
Perhaps all school leavers could do assembly factory work where you get paid for what you produce. The country (UK)is in a mess, so very sad.