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The Lady Hussey racism thing

1000 replies

Tiiiiiiiiiiired · 01/12/2022 10:58

I am really conflicted about this.

If went to live in Japan (I did live there for 3 years several years ago) I would be expected to be asked about where I'm from because I don't look Japanese (and in fact I was asked many times! I didn't mind at all, it was my choice to be in Japan and I knew I didn't look japanese). If I chose to stay in that country and have children, I'd expect my children would be asked the same, and their children and that although they would be Japanese by birth, I would hope they would be happy to talk about their heritage and where they are from and not mind being asked why they don't look Japanese and what the history is. I wouldnt think it racist and wouldn't want such questions to be stopped because we only learn from others, and about others, by talking and feeling safe to ask questions.

So why in the UK does everyone have to be sooo careful with what they say? This woman has a non English name, was wearing some non western clothing, as was asked about her heritage. Why is this abuse?

We need to stop being so sensitive and allow dialogue.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
13
Choconut · 01/12/2022 16:39

It's really bizarre to me that a royal aide wouldn't be aware that the question to ask if she wants to know about someone's heritage.....is to ask about their heritage! I don't know why she would be so pushy about it, it is very strange - like she is trying to catch her out. If she is just trying to make conversation why not ask her about Sistah Space which was her first answer and (I assume) the whole reason Ngozi was there.
It just smacks of Hussey wanting to bring the black person down a peg or two and put her in her place, not that she is genuinely interested in her heritage or wants to know about her. IMO it definitely does appear to be racist and I am always happy to say otherwise if I think someone is just offended at anything.

potniatheron · 01/12/2022 16:39

sheepdogdelight · 01/12/2022 16:27

*or has the definition of racism now widened to include speaking clumsily or using recently outmoded conversation gambits, without the intent to be racist?

Intent is very hard to prove. Overt racism is in the decline in the UK. A lot f racism is now microaggressions. only of course it isn't racism because the aggressor "never meant to offend" and the upset party is "too sensitive".

Racist behaviour is racist behaviour. This wasn't a situation of a person talking clumsily or not using the latest politically correct phrase.

"Intent is hard to prove" - sometimes it is, sometimes it's not. In the case of SH, Fulani seems to have been very quick to assume the most malign intent on SH's part. That is also difficult to prove, but you seem to have taken it as read, which is interesting.

To use a PP's example, "P*ki shop" fairly obviously includes an intent to be racist because it incorporates a word which from its very beginnings was understood to be a racist slur.

Whereas, for example, my octogenarian, stroke survivor mother's use of the phrase 'coloured people' is not racist because she doesn't mean it as a slur, merely a descriptor, and her age combined with the brain injury she suffered from her stroke makes it really hard for her to adopt a new phrase such as 'people of colour' when, in her mind, the old one suffices as a factual descriptor and is very similar to the new one.

I think it would be a very sad world if we always assumed the most malign possible intent behind someone's words, unless they were cognitively, linguistically and socially able to stick to rapidly changing social mores. I think such a world would, ultimately, be barely liveable, especially for people of age, neurodivergent conditions, or whose first language is not the language in which the conversation is being conducted..

We need forebearance for people to get things wrong in social situations, otherwise all social situations become fraught with danger.

Also, intent is an important factor in all sorts of human interactions. That's why mens rea is kind of a fundamental thing at law. And for society to work with minimal violence, we have got into a habit over the centuries of assuming that the intent of our interlocutors are fundamentally good unless we are given really good indications that they intend to do us harm. I don't see how society would work if we discard that fact and decide that intent is always malign, or doesn't matter at all.

Burgoo · 01/12/2022 16:40

@Heavyraindropsarefallingonmyhead "And I'm so fucking fed up of women and black women in particular being expected to act respectfully and with dignity when faced with abuse, injustice and inequality. Fuck that shit."

I expect EVERYONE to act respectfully and with dignity. It's my standard position.

Regardless of how fed up you are, the fact is that if you want something to change you play the game and you do what is needed. If you just dig heels in and say "f that" then society will say "no, f you" and then there is a conflict. It is deeply unfair and unjust and at the same time the fact is that we get what we need/want not by throwing our toys out of the pram, especially when we then expect the person to give the toy back later.

If someone came to me and said "how dare you do X,Y and Z? You nasty piece of work! You must treat me respectfully and with equality", I would possibly think "okay and why should I? What incentive do I have and what do I get from being nice and kind?" Is that fair? No. If you come to me and say "can we have an open dialogue about this, I do appreciate that..." I am MUCH more likely to by into the subject.

It's being diplomatic and playing the game. I'm bisexual (at the time I was gay). Whenever I "came out" I'd get the old "you don't look gay" thing. Had I just gone "what are you trying to say?!" and get all defensive about it then go to the press, I suspect I wouldn't get anyone on side. Instead, my usual response was "what does a gay person look like?" and if they said "you know..." I'd say "no I don't know. Can you elaborate because I can't ever find any!"

Did I have to do that consistently? Yes. Did I dislike the fact that they were implying gay = camp? It is what it is. I don't make ANY assumption about motives unless someone out and out says "I think gays are all camp queens" then I assume good intention. Is it FAIR that I get stereotyped into not fitting in with their idea of gay men? Is it fair that I almost get praised for not being flamboyant and OTT like Julian bloody Clarey? Not particularly but it is what it is. Asking why someone thinks something is MUCH more powerful than just screeching that it shouldn't be that way.

In short, people will always do things that we don't like. I find most of the time it's our own interpretation of events that causes the suffering, not the events themselves. After all, we see things as WE are not as THEY are.

One last example of this point: My best friend is gay, and he booked a double room (two single beds) online. When he arrived with his gay friend, they were told that there was only a double bed free. They weren't all that bothered and said it was fine. Then the guy at the counter looked them up and down and said "oh actually, all the rooms are fully booked. Apologies". What did my friend do? Text me "this hotel is homophobic, they wouldn't give us a double bed, the guy gave us a dirty look and then said they had over-booked".

I asked him how he KNEW the guy was homophobic and he said, "because he looked at us like we were pieces of shit and wouldn't give us a room". I gently reminded him that he had read the mind of the bloke at the counter, assumed it was acting with malice and then projected his own belief onto the guy. The fact was that the guy looked at them and said he didn't have a room as they had over-booked. Those were the full facts. Everything else was his own internal story.

This happens ALL the time. If someone doesn't give me a promotion its because I'm black/brown. They refuse service because I'm gay. They "wouldn't have done that if I were... (white, straight, a man etc). "He ignored me because I am fat/ugly/different looking". Its all assumption UNLESS you can observe it (you can't observe someone's thoughts, until they tell you them. Then you can observe it with your five senses).

People all need to take a moment, breathe and notice when they are assuming.

thehorsehasnowbolted · 01/12/2022 16:40

Is this not cultural appropriation, normally condemned on MN?

I was thinking about this as well

TooBigForMyBoots · 01/12/2022 16:41

TrickyD · 01/12/2022 16:37

It was insensitive to keep asking Ngozi Fulani ‘where she was from’.

Ms Fulani was wearing African dress with hair in an African style.
if Ngozi Fulani was determined to assert her Britishness, why wear such clothes and hair style?
Is this not cultural appropriation, normally condemned on MN?

It wasn't just insensitive. It was Offensive and racist according to people present and unacceptable and deeply regrettable according to the Palace.

thehorsehasnowbolted · 01/12/2022 16:44

It wasn't just insensitive. It was Offensive and racist according to people present and unacceptable and deeply regrettable according to the Palace.

Repeating this 100s of times does not make it true

Choconut · 01/12/2022 16:44

thehorsehasnowbolted · 01/12/2022 16:40

Is this not cultural appropriation, normally condemned on MN?

I was thinking about this as well

Surely that's absurd, while she is British her clothing reflected her heritage. I can't see anything wrong with that. However I don't see the issue with 'borrowing' anything from any culture as long as it is done respectfully and not in an attempt to profit from it with no thought to where and how it originated.

TrickyD · 01/12/2022 16:45

Ok, Toobigforyourboots, yes those things too.
But why does cultural appropriation not apply here?

Heavyraindropsarefallingonmyhead · 01/12/2022 16:45

TruckerBarbie · 01/12/2022 16:37

I'm not talking about the person from the incident on this thread. I mean 'they' in general. The vast majority of non white people in this country haven't been here since 43AD. I'd be more than happy to discuss my cultural background if somebody was interested enough to ask.

The vast majority of white peoples ancestors haven't been here since AD43 either that doesn't make it okay to single out (in your words) 'non white people' because 'they' 'maybe British but its obvious their ancestors moved here in the last 100 years or so'

Out of interest how is it so obvious to you which Black British peoples roots only go back in Britain 100 years compared to the Black British people with much longer family histories in the UK? Because its not obvious to me!

And how long is long enough before they are not 'British but' because if 100 years ago isn't long enough how long is? 200 years, 500 years? And who is the arbitrary decision maker on that?

minou123 · 01/12/2022 16:46

Itloggedmeoutagain · 01/12/2022 16:36

Haven't RTFT but there was someone on Jeremy Vine this aft who pointed out that the event was for the charity for Black African and Caribbean women about domestic abuse. So it is relevant.
Given the context she could easily have said I'm British but my family are from wherever..

That makes it worse.

If you are attending an event for Black African and Caribbean women about DV, you already know the women attending will be from African or Caribbean heritage.
Why do you need to keep asking where someone is from, if you already know?!
And why does Ngozi need to explain her heritage if the answer is in the name of the event?

Clavinova · 01/12/2022 16:47

Squeezita
But on this occasion, she was referring to her necklace, not her dress

Ngozi also refers to her "red, gold and green headband" - and how can you claim that her 'dress' is not a symbol of her culture in the GMB interview?

www.mirror.co.uk/tv/tv-news/ngozi-fulani-says-buckingham-palace-28626206

Squeezita · 01/12/2022 16:48

thehorsehasnowbolted · 01/12/2022 16:44

It wasn't just insensitive. It was Offensive and racist according to people present and unacceptable and deeply regrettable according to the Palace.

Repeating this 100s of times does not make it true

Well, Hussey was got rid of, and a spokesman for the Prince of Wales said he believes "the course of action taken is correct".

So it’s true,

Heavyraindropsarefallingonmyhead · 01/12/2022 16:55

Burgoo · 01/12/2022 16:40

@Heavyraindropsarefallingonmyhead "And I'm so fucking fed up of women and black women in particular being expected to act respectfully and with dignity when faced with abuse, injustice and inequality. Fuck that shit."

I expect EVERYONE to act respectfully and with dignity. It's my standard position.

Regardless of how fed up you are, the fact is that if you want something to change you play the game and you do what is needed. If you just dig heels in and say "f that" then society will say "no, f you" and then there is a conflict. It is deeply unfair and unjust and at the same time the fact is that we get what we need/want not by throwing our toys out of the pram, especially when we then expect the person to give the toy back later.

If someone came to me and said "how dare you do X,Y and Z? You nasty piece of work! You must treat me respectfully and with equality", I would possibly think "okay and why should I? What incentive do I have and what do I get from being nice and kind?" Is that fair? No. If you come to me and say "can we have an open dialogue about this, I do appreciate that..." I am MUCH more likely to by into the subject.

It's being diplomatic and playing the game. I'm bisexual (at the time I was gay). Whenever I "came out" I'd get the old "you don't look gay" thing. Had I just gone "what are you trying to say?!" and get all defensive about it then go to the press, I suspect I wouldn't get anyone on side. Instead, my usual response was "what does a gay person look like?" and if they said "you know..." I'd say "no I don't know. Can you elaborate because I can't ever find any!"

Did I have to do that consistently? Yes. Did I dislike the fact that they were implying gay = camp? It is what it is. I don't make ANY assumption about motives unless someone out and out says "I think gays are all camp queens" then I assume good intention. Is it FAIR that I get stereotyped into not fitting in with their idea of gay men? Is it fair that I almost get praised for not being flamboyant and OTT like Julian bloody Clarey? Not particularly but it is what it is. Asking why someone thinks something is MUCH more powerful than just screeching that it shouldn't be that way.

In short, people will always do things that we don't like. I find most of the time it's our own interpretation of events that causes the suffering, not the events themselves. After all, we see things as WE are not as THEY are.

One last example of this point: My best friend is gay, and he booked a double room (two single beds) online. When he arrived with his gay friend, they were told that there was only a double bed free. They weren't all that bothered and said it was fine. Then the guy at the counter looked them up and down and said "oh actually, all the rooms are fully booked. Apologies". What did my friend do? Text me "this hotel is homophobic, they wouldn't give us a double bed, the guy gave us a dirty look and then said they had over-booked".

I asked him how he KNEW the guy was homophobic and he said, "because he looked at us like we were pieces of shit and wouldn't give us a room". I gently reminded him that he had read the mind of the bloke at the counter, assumed it was acting with malice and then projected his own belief onto the guy. The fact was that the guy looked at them and said he didn't have a room as they had over-booked. Those were the full facts. Everything else was his own internal story.

This happens ALL the time. If someone doesn't give me a promotion its because I'm black/brown. They refuse service because I'm gay. They "wouldn't have done that if I were... (white, straight, a man etc). "He ignored me because I am fat/ugly/different looking". Its all assumption UNLESS you can observe it (you can't observe someone's thoughts, until they tell you them. Then you can observe it with your five senses).

People all need to take a moment, breathe and notice when they are assuming.

Well thanks for that beautiful lecture on how to effect society change.

I will be sure to travel back in time and tell the women throwing themselves under horses, changing themselves to railings and being force fed in prison that if they had just asked nicely men would have just given them the vote.

And of course Nelson Mandela shouldn't have gone to prison for inciting workers to strike, he should have just asked nicely for the apartheid to end.

Welsh people should have gone to prison for the right to have official communication in welsh

Slaves shouldn't have rebelled, Iranians shouldn't have protested, etc etc etc

Oh and in your example you quoted about your gay friend. The man in the hotel was blatantly homophobic.

So whilst your 'turn the other cheeky thing works for you, let's not pretend society change has happened because people politely pointed out something was unfair behind closed doors and the aggressors when 'oops sorry we won't do that again'

stuntbubbles · 01/12/2022 16:56

TrickyD · 01/12/2022 16:37

It was insensitive to keep asking Ngozi Fulani ‘where she was from’.

Ms Fulani was wearing African dress with hair in an African style.
if Ngozi Fulani was determined to assert her Britishness, why wear such clothes and hair style?
Is this not cultural appropriation, normally condemned on MN?

  1. As has been pointed out, Africa is a continent. So what’s an “African” hairstyle?
  2. What’s a British hairstyle, when it comes to it, that you believe she should have worn? How do you assert Britishness and why is her hairstyle not British? She’s a British woman, with a hairstyle: therefore it’s a British hairstyle.
  3. Of course it’s not cultural appropriation for someone to wear a hairstyle inspired by their own heritage. It would be cultural appropriation for me as a white woman to wear a feather headdress or locs.
TooBigForMyBoots · 01/12/2022 16:56

thehorsehasnowbolted · 01/12/2022 16:44

It wasn't just insensitive. It was Offensive and racist according to people present and unacceptable and deeply regrettable according to the Palace.

Repeating this 100s of times does not make it true

They're not my words. They are the words of the people present and the Royal Household. Do you think they're all lying @thehorsehasnowbolted?

LadyWithLapdog · 01/12/2022 16:57

Once the curious little old lady got her reply, did that go anywhere? Did she have a little anecdote to share or some other contribution to make to move along the conversation?

I’m only calling her a little old lady as it seems some people would find this acceptable , somehow.

Squeezita · 01/12/2022 16:57

Clavinova · 01/12/2022 16:47

Squeezita
But on this occasion, she was referring to her necklace, not her dress

Ngozi also refers to her "red, gold and green headband" - and how can you claim that her 'dress' is not a symbol of her culture in the GMB interview?

www.mirror.co.uk/tv/tv-news/ngozi-fulani-says-buckingham-palace-28626206

The headband is barely visibly, I doubt that was why Hussey questioned her.

And I’ve read and watched the interview linked above and I can’t see any references to Ngozi’s dress. Could you quote?

twelly · 01/12/2022 17:03

TooBigForMyBoots · 01/12/2022 16:16

It would have been completely unacceptable to refuse to accept that the black woman in front of you is British, despite her repeatedly saying so. Telling Ngozi Fulani that she wasn't British, she was Carribean, just because she was black, was racist.

That is what happened. NF said it happened. Witnesses said it happened. BP have investigated and declared it unacceptable. What happened that makes you think it wasn't racist?

@TooBigForMyBoots My question is would be acceptable to ask about heritage given the group that she represented focuses solely upon African and Caribbean women?

TrickyD · 01/12/2022 17:04

Of course it’s not cultural appropriation for someone to wear a hairstyle inspired by their own heritage. It would be cultural appropriation for me as a white woman to wear a feather headdress or locs

if you wear a hairstyle and clothes inspired by your own heritage, don’t be surprised when someone asks you about that heritage.

minou123 · 01/12/2022 17:06

TrickyD · 01/12/2022 17:04

Of course it’s not cultural appropriation for someone to wear a hairstyle inspired by their own heritage. It would be cultural appropriation for me as a white woman to wear a feather headdress or locs

if you wear a hairstyle and clothes inspired by your own heritage, don’t be surprised when someone asks you about that heritage.

She didn't ask about her heritage. She asked where she was from.

Very different questions. Very different answers.

stuntbubbles · 01/12/2022 17:06

TrickyD · 01/12/2022 17:04

Of course it’s not cultural appropriation for someone to wear a hairstyle inspired by their own heritage. It would be cultural appropriation for me as a white woman to wear a feather headdress or locs

if you wear a hairstyle and clothes inspired by your own heritage, don’t be surprised when someone asks you about that heritage.

Funny, no one ever asks me about my white German heritage when I wear my hair in a Dirndl.

MaryMollyPolly · 01/12/2022 17:08

NosnowontheScottishhills · 01/12/2022 16:20

I personally believe the palace felt it had to act decisively and callously because Ngozi put the conversation on Twitter and the media jumped on the band wagon. If she’d been for the “better person” in all of this and had contacted the palace confidentiality and raised her complaint and asked to meet with SH/other officials/members of the RF and explained why what was said was offensive then hopefully SH would have made a genuine and heartfelt apology would have learnt something as would the rest of the RF and their hangers on and maybe this would have opened up a constructive discussion generally.

Why is it her job to educate them? Why on earth should she? Hasn’t she got enough to do?

QueenCoconut · 01/12/2022 17:08

stuntbubbles · 01/12/2022 16:56

  1. As has been pointed out, Africa is a continent. So what’s an “African” hairstyle?
  2. What’s a British hairstyle, when it comes to it, that you believe she should have worn? How do you assert Britishness and why is her hairstyle not British? She’s a British woman, with a hairstyle: therefore it’s a British hairstyle.
  3. Of course it’s not cultural appropriation for someone to wear a hairstyle inspired by their own heritage. It would be cultural appropriation for me as a white woman to wear a feather headdress or locs.

I think these are really good points. I would also be ‘interested’ in what constitutes a British hairstyle.

perhaps people could explain what a British person looks like in general ?

MaybeMan · 01/12/2022 17:09

I am shocked that Mn is letting this thread stand. So many racist posts 😬Awful.

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