Page 24 | The Lady Hussey racism thing

Tiiiiiiiiiiired · 2022-12-01T10:58:36+00:00

I am really conflicted about this. If went to live in Japan (I did live there for 3 years several years ago) I would be expected to be asked about where I'm from because I don't look Japanese (and in fact I was asked many times! I didn't mind at all, it was my choice to be in Japan and I knew I didn't look japanese). If I chose to stay in that country and have children, I'd expect my children would be asked the same, and their children and that although they would be Japanese by birth, I would hope they would be happy to talk about their heritage and where they are from and not mind being asked why they don't look Japanese and what the history is. I wouldnt think it racist and wouldn't want such questions to be stopped because we only learn from others, and about others, by talking and feeling safe to ask questions. So why in the UK does everyone have to be sooo careful with what they say? This woman has a non English name, was wearing some non western clothing, as was asked about her heritage. Why is this abuse? We need to stop being so sensitive and allow dialogue.

SpicyFoodRocks · 01/12/2022 16:17

potniatheron · 01/12/2022 16:07

But I actually think this is an interesting point. As I understand it, to be racist involves having malign intent, ie seeing one race as less deserving than others. It's not the same as speaking clumsily or making a faux pas. Without knowing SH's intent, how can we know that she was being racist?

or has the definition of racism now widened to include speaking clumsily or using recently outmoded conversation gambits, without the intent to be racist?

Now, Fulani has a charity which allegedly refused help to a mixed heritage victim of domestic violence because Fulani deemed she was too 'white' (the DV victim in question has posted her story on twitter).

I'd define that as racist, because there is intent, and the belief that a mixed race woman is less deserving of help than a Black one.

But I'm not sure that asking Fulani where her fmaily were from was racist, unless we can glean SH's intent.

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‘or has the definition of racism now widened to include speaking clumsily or using recently outmoded conversation gambits, without the intent to be racist?‘

Some people (under 83) still call their corner shop run by Asian people, the ‘P* shop’. A clumsy phrase or racist?

thehorsehasnowbolted · 01/12/2022 16:17

Cassius was his slave name

This is not the case here, surely.

Heavyraindropsarefallingonmyhead · 01/12/2022 16:18

thehorsehasnowbolted · 01/12/2022 16:11

Even if she prefers to go by Ngozi, why do you care?

So, potentially name changed (unclear), no footage, alleged witnesses from similar themed charities, apparent anti-monarchy opinions that someone mentioned upthread etc.

This ruckus indeed seems to be more and more credible by the minute

So to be clear you think women who change their name shouldn't be believed if they accused someone of something?

🙄

I bet if there was video footage you would be claiming it could have been tampered with

Squeezita · 01/12/2022 16:19

SpicyFoodRocks · 01/12/2022 16:17

‘or has the definition of racism now widened to include speaking clumsily or using recently outmoded conversation gambits, without the intent to be racist?‘

Some people (under 83) still call their corner shop run by Asian people, the ‘P* shop’. A clumsy phrase or racist?

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Exactly, and also refer to their local Chinese restaurant as the ‘C***’. But they’ll insist they don’t mean anything by it so it can’t racist.

Despite their dubious intentions, it’s racist as fuck.

stuntbubbles · 01/12/2022 16:19

potniatheron · 01/12/2022 16:07

But I actually think this is an interesting point. As I understand it, to be racist involves having malign intent, ie seeing one race as less deserving than others. It's not the same as speaking clumsily or making a faux pas. Without knowing SH's intent, how can we know that she was being racist?

or has the definition of racism now widened to include speaking clumsily or using recently outmoded conversation gambits, without the intent to be racist?

Now, Fulani has a charity which allegedly refused help to a mixed heritage victim of domestic violence because Fulani deemed she was too 'white' (the DV victim in question has posted her story on twitter).

I'd define that as racist, because there is intent, and the belief that a mixed race woman is less deserving of help than a Black one.

But I'm not sure that asking Fulani where her fmaily were from was racist, unless we can glean SH's intent.

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I don’t think intent matters at all, actually. Otherwise we’d limit the definition of racism to just “active members of the NF” or similar. Whereas in reality there are plenty of people who don’t think of themselves as racist - as per the hilarious comment earlier about Lady Hussey “being confident she’s not a racist, so anything she says is OK – but nonetheless perform acts of racism, because they don’t give a shit about educating themselves on microaggressions or internal biases or anything else. And even if you’re the most well-intentioned ally you can probably still be unintentionally racist, because you don’t have the lived experience.

NosnowontheScottishhills · 01/12/2022 16:20

LiveIngSun · 01/12/2022 12:08

I think Palace was callous in their wording after 62 years of service they have been too happy to jump on the outrage from the media. The palace themselves are far from innocent, and trying to so quickly distance themselves smacks of hypocrisy. She would have worked alongside Prince Phillip, who said far worse, and no one said anything.

I think rather than cancelling her and speaking harshly it could have been deal with more constructively for all parties involved. Firstly the obvious apology, but then real change. She could have taken part in meaningful training then made active steps to heal the rift and show she understood the hurt.

As it is some will blame Ms Fulani and a bigger rift will be there, from those who consider it acceptable. For Lady Hussey to actually speak an apology then advocate for change in some way would have been really meaningful. A return visit, the place asking for ways to adapt their pro tool or be signposted to training. To hear they actually believed that change should happen, not a sound bite and mumbling behind doors. There’s lots of ways forward that could be effective in building bridges and seeing change. They took the easy route, without confronting the much much bigger issues that the Royals harbour. Get to look good at her expense, whilst ignoring the bigger issues.

I personally believe the palace felt it had to act decisively and callously because Ngozi put the conversation on Twitter and the media jumped on the band wagon. If she’d been for the “better person” in all of this and had contacted the palace confidentiality and raised her complaint and asked to meet with SH/other officials/members of the RF and explained why what was said was offensive then hopefully SH would have made a genuine and heartfelt apology would have learnt something as would the rest of the RF and their hangers on and maybe this would have opened up a constructive discussion generally.

Heavyraindropsarefallingonmyhead · 01/12/2022 16:21

thehorsehasnowbolted · 01/12/2022 16:17

Cassius was his slave name

This is not the case here, surely.

So what.

Anyone can change their name at any time for any reason without needing to justify it to you.

I think the issue appears to be that she changed her name from a more traditional 'British' one to one without traditional British connections.

You seem to be straying very close (crossed the line entirely) onto the realm of 'she was wearing a short skirt so she was asking for it'

thehorsehasnowbolted · 01/12/2022 16:22

And are you saying she changed her name to Ngozi after Hussey’s interrogation?

I'm not saying this.

But generally, I'm not a fan of people changing their names. What was wrong with her real name (assuming she indeed changed it)?

If someone was offended for being 'othered', why would they change their name to something that is not traditionally British, or American etc.?

TruckerBarbie · 01/12/2022 16:22

I've not seen the incident in question, and I'd agree that if the other person doesn't want to answer then it's best to leave it.

However, I don't think it's particularly offensive to ask about somebody's background. They may be British but it's obvious that their ancestors moved here sometime in the last 100 years or so, which naturally makes people curious.

Squeezita · 01/12/2022 16:22

thehorsehasnowbolted · 01/12/2022 16:17

Cassius was his slave name

This is not the case here, surely.

Hilarious that you only respond to snippets of my post because you can’t give a straight answer. So very obvious.

You do know Mohammed Ali wasn’t a slave right? He was referring to his ancestry and acknowledging it with his new name. Why can’t Ngozi do the same?

Clavinova · 01/12/2022 16:24

Squeezita
But none of those interviews describes her dress as being cultural

I quite clearly quoted Ngozi;

“When I’m going to certain places, I’m very proud of my culture and my background, so I will wear something authentic..."

Heavyraindropsarefallingonmyhead · 01/12/2022 16:25

NosnowontheScottishhills · 01/12/2022 16:20

I personally believe the palace felt it had to act decisively and callously because Ngozi put the conversation on Twitter and the media jumped on the band wagon. If she’d been for the “better person” in all of this and had contacted the palace confidentiality and raised her complaint and asked to meet with SH/other officials/members of the RF and explained why what was said was offensive then hopefully SH would have made a genuine and heartfelt apology would have learnt something as would the rest of the RF and their hangers on and maybe this would have opened up a constructive discussion generally.

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So you are blaming Ngozi for the palaces reaction. not the Palace. I mean that's some victim blaming right there.

If you don't react in the 'right' way then the other person might react in a way you don't like and it will be your fault (Oh the irony of this sounding like it comes straight from the domestic abusers handbook given the victims work 🙄)

thehorsehasnowbolted · 01/12/2022 16:25

You do know Mohammed Ali wasn’t a slave right? He was referring to his ancestry and acknowledging it with his new name. Why can’t Ngozi do the same?

Is Marlene Headley a slave name (assuming this is this woman's real name)?

Nobody needs to justify anything, But people will speculate, surely

Squeezita · 01/12/2022 16:25

thehorsehasnowbolted · 01/12/2022 16:22

And are you saying she changed her name to Ngozi after Hussey’s interrogation?

I'm not saying this.

But generally, I'm not a fan of people changing their names. What was wrong with her real name (assuming she indeed changed it)?

If someone was offended for being 'othered', why would they change their name to something that is not traditionally British, or American etc.?

You seriously can’t think why some people who were descended from Africans who were enslaved and given ‘white’ names would reject those names and reclaim their ancestral names?

sheepdogdelight · 01/12/2022 16:27

*or has the definition of racism now widened to include speaking clumsily or using recently outmoded conversation gambits, without the intent to be racist?

Intent is very hard to prove. Overt racism is in the decline in the UK. A lot f racism is now microaggressions. only of course it isn't racism because the aggressor "never meant to offend" and the upset party is "too sensitive".

Racist behaviour is racist behaviour. This wasn't a situation of a person talking clumsily or not using the latest politically correct phrase.

TooBigForMyBoots · 01/12/2022 16:27

They may be British, but... they're not really British and should expect to explain how they got here.🫢

Heavyraindropsarefallingonmyhead · 01/12/2022 16:28

TruckerBarbie · 01/12/2022 16:22

I've not seen the incident in question, and I'd agree that if the other person doesn't want to answer then it's best to leave it.

However, I don't think it's particularly offensive to ask about somebody's background. They may be British but it's obvious that their ancestors moved here sometime in the last 100 years or so, which naturally makes people curious.

There have been multiple documented instances black people in the UK since AD 43. Please explain how its obvious her ancestors moved here in the last 100 years or so?

Squeezita · 01/12/2022 16:28

thehorsehasnowbolted · 01/12/2022 16:25

You do know Mohammed Ali wasn’t a slave right? He was referring to his ancestry and acknowledging it with his new name. Why can’t Ngozi do the same?

Is Marlene Headley a slave name (assuming this is this woman's real name)?

Nobody needs to justify anything, But people will speculate, surely

Just like Hussey speculated and got rightly challenged.

Your curiosity is as offensive as Husseys.

Squeezita · 01/12/2022 16:29

Clavinova · 01/12/2022 16:24

Squeezita
But none of those interviews describes her dress as being cultural

I quite clearly quoted Ngozi;

“When I’m going to certain places, I’m very proud of my culture and my background, so I will wear something authentic..."

But on this occasion, she was referring to her necklace, not her dress.

thehorsehasnowbolted · 01/12/2022 16:35

But on this occasion, she was referring to her necklace, not her dress

Clutching at straws

Itloggedmeoutagain · 01/12/2022 16:36

Haven't RTFT but there was someone on Jeremy Vine this aft who pointed out that the event was for the charity for Black African and Caribbean women about domestic abuse. So it is relevant.
Given the context she could easily have said I'm British but my family are from wherever..

thehorsehasnowbolted · 01/12/2022 16:37

would reject those names and reclaim their ancestral names?

And then get offended for being 'othered'? You either feel part of a place or you don't. Don't blame other people (plus get them sacked and ridiculed on Twitter) for your own sense of not belonging

TrickyD · 01/12/2022 16:37

It was insensitive to keep asking Ngozi Fulani ‘where she was from’.

Ms Fulani was wearing African dress with hair in an African style.
if Ngozi Fulani was determined to assert her Britishness, why wear such clothes and hair style?
Is this not cultural appropriation, normally condemned on MN?

TruckerBarbie · 01/12/2022 16:37

Heavyraindropsarefallingonmyhead · 01/12/2022 16:28

There have been multiple documented instances black people in the UK since AD 43. Please explain how its obvious her ancestors moved here in the last 100 years or so?

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I'm not talking about the person from the incident on this thread. I mean 'they' in general. The vast majority of non white people in this country haven't been here since 43AD. I'd be more than happy to discuss my cultural background if somebody was interested enough to ask.

Heavyraindropsarefallingonmyhead · 01/12/2022 16:38

If someone was offended for being 'othered', why would they change their name to something that is not traditionally British, or American etc.?

If she didn't want to have sex why did she wear a short dress/thong
If she didn't want him to hit her why didn't she just do what he wanted?

Someone changing their name to something not 'traditionally British' is not an open invitation for people to be racist

The fact that American (generally seen as predominantly white) names are acceptable proves that this is a race issue. Because it would be okay if she had an American name, like Liberty etc (or Hunter or Chad for American boys names which are more often associated with the US than the UK)