The Lady Hussey racism thing

[Tiiiiiiiiiiired]

I am really conflicted about this.

If went to live in Japan (I did live there for 3 years several years ago) I would be expected to be asked about where I'm from because I don't look Japanese (and in fact I was asked many times! I didn't mind at all, it was my choice to be in Japan and I knew I didn't look japanese). If I chose to stay in that country and have children, I'd expect my children would be asked the same, and their children and that although they would be Japanese by birth, I would hope they would be happy to talk about their heritage and where they are from and not mind being asked why they don't look Japanese and what the history is. I wouldnt think it racist and wouldn't want such questions to be stopped because we only learn from others, and about others, by talking and feeling safe to ask questions.

So why in the UK does everyone have to be sooo careful with what they say? This woman has a non English name, was wearing some non western clothing, as was asked about her heritage. Why is this abuse?

We need to stop being so sensitive and allow dialogue.

@MaryMollyPolly it's just my experience, growing up in London. Women that I know of her age, born in London to parents of Caribbean descent, usually have western names.

Googling tells me she was born Marlene Headley. But I haven't actually found anything to verify that.

People have different views on many events the event involved organisations that highlighted how different minority groups were impacted in different situations. It stands to reason therefore that people had different heritage.

Was the purpose of the event to not mention this despite the reason these groups were highlighting this?

Would those who think the questioning was racist have been happy with the question phrased along the lines of asking about heritage in this case given the fact it was being highlighted at the event?

My MIL is the same age and, although she came from a poor and underprivileged background, she has more class and decency than what I read about this RF representative. BTW did the 60s onwards completely pass her by? We’re not talking of the pre-war generation or Victorians.

does get boring after a while and I don't see why I should bother appeasing someones curiosity/lack of cultural exposure

Get off your high horse. They may not be that interested. Maybe the surname is the only thing they can cling to when trying to make conversation with someone who's otherwise uninspiring proves to be difficult

Googling tells me she was born Marlene Headley. But I haven't actually found anything to verify that

Really?

I believe 'you people' is posh person speak for 'your family'. As per Malory Towers where the characters were always on about going home to spend the holidays with 'my people' ie my family. Also Joanna Lumley used it once to mean her family in an interview.

It doesn't mean 'your ethnic gorup' - she was just asking Fulani where her family originally came from.

The mental gymnastics people are doing to excuse the garden-variety racist would be better put to some other use.

The jist of that seems to be:

LH is married to an upper class man with one leg so she can't be racist
It's more upsetting to be accused of racism than it is to be on the receiving end of it
She's old

Now, whilst I do understand why some people are using age as a defence, normally because their 80 grandpa would say similar and doesn't mean anything by it, that's irrelevant.

What this actually is is some with 60 years experience of handling the public diplomatically. 60 years! She's not someone who has never spoken to a black person before and means well. She is an extremely experienced representative of the RF.

And also quite frankly if you are no longer capable of doing your job properly, paid or otherwise, you shouldn't be doing it. If there was an old man working on a hotline for victims of domestic abuse who was asking women if they were trying hard enough to stop their husband abusing them (not the best correlation but I'm trying) would we leave him in place because he's old so people should just put up with him, or should we politely move him onto other duties that don't bring him into direct contact with the public if he is not willing to retire.

It was an event to highlight the scourge of violence against women and children. It was not an event for minority groups.

So what facts, as they are available to us, are the basis for your opinion that what happened to Ngozi Fulani was not racism@twelly?

@thehorsehasnowbolted I'm not sure if your 'really?' is sarcastic.

But if it's not then yes, really.

1. You opted to go to and live in Japan. That was your CHOICE. This lady was born in the UK and even if she didn't, her family may not have willingly come to the UK or had been ruled by the British Empire.
2. The UK is sensitive about it because we committed mass-killings, slavery and caused untold suffering to millions of black people over the centuries. If you lived in Japan and they had enslaved and/or massacred your ethnic group, then maybe you would have a point.
3. I'm unsure if I would use the term abuse, though certainly it was terribly ill-advised. She said she was from the UK. Hussey then continued to push for the "real" place she came from even though the woman had repeatedly told her.
4. If you didn't know your heritage because your family were forcibly removed from your country, or if your family were under the British Empire, I suspect that may be a rather sensitive subject. If you have familial trauma over decades and someone just keeps needling you about the subject surely that borders on abusive?

At the same time:

1. We cannot read anyone's minds; we can only hear what is being said. We can make assumptions about motive or intention but unless Hussey explicitly said "I think you aren't British because you are black" then it's all assumption.
2. Racism is believing you are superior and treating people as inferior based on race (or it used to be before the definition was hijacked by CRT). I certainly think this was prejudiced behaviour though I am very particular about what "racism" is because it is easily thrown around without any thoughtfulness.
3. Hussey was extremely clumsy and rude in the questioning. I suspect she hasn't come across someone who pushes back and doesn't just give in and go along with her narrative and this will surely have taken her aback. She is the ancestor of administrators of the British Empire and there is likely to be a hangover of those colonial attitudes. She needs to learn when to take a hint and keep quiet.
4. There was no need for this to hit the media and I think there is an argument to be had about having adult conversations, in private, that can allow for learning and development. Unfortunately, as this has now hit the news, it will not only cause Hussey to push back and feel victimised but stoke the "you can't say anything nowadays" brigade. We need to move to a respectful, measured conversation about these things rather than bringing out the pitchforks and lighting the torches. The fact that Ngozi has since said it was "abuse" has only added to the rhetoric that black people are fragile and need cotton-wooling which is actually rather unhelpful and patronising.

In short, you are being unreasonable in your assessment/comparison AND I do think we need to have more adults in the room when it comes to these sensitive conversations.

I'm not sure if your 'really?' is sarcastic

No, it's not sarcastic. I'm gobsmacked as I recall reading about reactionary activists in the US changing their names. I wonder why they do it

The organisation that Ngozi Fulani represented focuses upon African and Caribbean women and those from the RF or the RFs aides would have known this.

So @TooBigForMyBoots would it have been acceptable in your view to have enquired about heritiage rather than where someone came from in this particular case or is that racism in your view as well?

But none of those interviews describes her dress as being cultural, @Clavinova . And remember it’s not her necklaces Hussey touched, it was her hair.

In the Indie article Ngozi does say But there were a lot of people that stood out. And as a couple of white colleagues said to me ‘nobody asked me what nationality I was’.

But your kids have a British accent. Which tells people they are British.

I am pretty appalled at the number of people on this thread saying, ‘Well when I am in a country where my accent marks me out as being from another country, I don’t mind people asking where I am from, so I can’t understand what the problem is in this case’.

How thick can you get? That’s nothing like a British National, with a British accent, being asked where they are really from, just cos they are not white! Everything about N indicated she was British! Except to people who think only white people called Terry and June can ‘really’ be British.

Also forgot to mention:

If someone answers your question, accept that bloody answer!

I'd have kept going with it, saying "I am from Croydon (or wherever I'm from)" and if she kept asking "where are you really from?" then I'd ask "what are you actually asking? Because I have given you the answer several times in this conversation. Is there something you cannot understand with my answer?"

Calling it out in the moment is MUCH more effective than going to the media and whipping up a race storm. Because a consequence happening immediately is so important in human learning, it would have been much more powerful plus I believe that the moment you start calling out people publicly you are no longer respectful and acting with dignity and that isn't good for anyone. These things CAN be done with tact and respectfully and still get the message across.

‘So I think there is a realistic possibility that this lady, knowing in herself that she was not racist, was being outgoing and friendly in her own way, and making, possibly overenthusiastic enquiries in an effort to connect, which backfired badly. If this is correct, she was not being careful in her choice of words precisely because she was confident about her lack of racism.‘

This is one of my ‘favourite’ comments on the thread. Person accidentally made racist comment because they were so confident they are not racist. So actually maybe the more racist the comment, the less racist someone actually is?!

The number of white people who ‘don’t mind’ being asked about their heritage is getting really tedious to read about. Do they want a medal?

Are they genuinely unable to understand the race issue at hand?? Or refusing to?

It has been explained so many times on the thread.

Again, how is she a reactionary?

Even if she prefers to go by Ngozi, why do you care? Mohammed Ali changed his name from Cassius Clay because Cassius was his slave name. Are you gobsmacked by that too?

But I actually think this is an interesting point. As I understand it, to be racist involves having malign intent, ie seeing one race as less deserving than others. It's not the same as speaking clumsily or making a faux pas. Without knowing SH's intent, how can we know that she was being racist?

or has the definition of racism now widened to include speaking clumsily or using recently outmoded conversation gambits, without the intent to be racist?

Now, Fulani has a charity which allegedly refused help to a mixed heritage victim of domestic violence because Fulani deemed she was too 'white' (the DV victim in question has posted her story on twitter).

I'd define that as racist, because there is intent, and the belief that a mixed race woman is less deserving of help than a Black one.

But I'm not sure that asking Fulani where her fmaily were from was racist, unless we can glean SH's intent.

Well given we are discussing an instance where Ngozi was invited to the Palace due to her work in founding a domestic abuse charity I'm pretty sure there's plenty of inspiring things she can talk about!

Out of interest what do you speak about to uninspiring people called Smith or Williams? A riveting discussion on the history of blacksmiths? Do you wander off in silence if their name isn't interesting enough to 'fall back on?'

Even if she prefers to go by Ngozi, why do you care?

So, potentially name changed (unclear), no footage, alleged witnesses from similar themed charities, apparent anti-monarchy opinions that someone mentioned upthread etc.

This ruckus indeed seems to be more and more credible by the minute

Expecting people to call it out in the moment totally ignores social/societal pressures, and imbalances of power.

And I'm so fucking fed up of women and black women in particular being expected to act respectfully and with dignity when faced with abuse, injustice and inequality. Fuck that shit.

It would have been completely unacceptable to refuse to accept that the black woman in front of you is British, despite her repeatedly saying so. Telling Ngozi Fulani that she wasn't British, she was Carribean, just because she was black, was racist.

That is what happened. NF said it happened. Witnesses said it happened. BP have investigated and declared it unacceptable. What happened that makes you think it wasn't racist?

Why won’t you answer why you think she’s reactionary?

And are you saying she changed her name to Ngozi after Hussey’s interrogation?

And again, Mohammed Ali changed his name from Cassius Clay because he said Cassius was his slave name. Are you gobsmacked by that too?