Page 14 | The Lady Hussey racism thing

Tigofigo · 01/12/2022 12:28

Heartstopper · 01/12/2022 11:05

I agree the transcript reads badly but I also agree with OP and think the woman questioned was being obtuse. A simple, 'I'm British, born and bred, but my ancestors came from X in 19xx' would have answered the question and may have led to a friendly discussion about culture.

Why should she?

If someone asks where I'm from I don't give them a potted history of my ancestry, and if I've already answered their questions how I wish to it's bloody rude to keep asking me even without the race element.

PetraBP · 01/12/2022 12:29

You realise that “call a spade a spade” is a racist phrase, right?

MerryMarigold · 01/12/2022 12:29

LovelyLovelyWarmCoffee · 01/12/2022 12:18

I agree OP, enough with the faux naiveté, everybody understands the « where are you from Q » no need to pretend it is purely about citizenship and play dumb when answering.

I have been living in the UK for 10y+ and in the process of getting citizenship, I have a strong accent from my home country, and a very foreign last name from another country.
When someone asks where I am from I am happy that they are interested, and even after becoming British why would I pretend I don’t understand the question is about my accent / name?

Well you're not from the UK then, and have a strong accent to prove it. This is in no way comparable. NF was born and bred here in this country. The only thing which would suggest she may not have English heritage is her skin colour.

54isanopendoor · 01/12/2022 12:29

@foggydaysun also makes an important point however.

If I were a person who was mindful not to even risk causing offence, I would not ask a person of colour 'where they were from' given that the UK has a colonial past & has welcomed those from overseas in the last 100 years too.

If I were a priviledged white person representing the Royal Family, I definately wouldn't ask. And I certainly wouldn't push the point as SH clearly did. At that point it becomes really offensive I think.

FirewomanSam · 01/12/2022 12:30

PetraBP · 01/12/2022 12:29

You realise that “call a spade a spade” is a racist phrase, right?

I did not! I will Google now. Thank you for making me aware and I apologise for using it in that case.

Squeezita · 01/12/2022 12:30

BabyFour2023 · 01/12/2022 12:28

This!
She worded it badly but I think by the “ok, where are your people from” she meant ancestors, family; where are your family originally from.

I am mixed race and have no problem telling people where my fathers family are from. It’s clear what people are asking me when they ask where my family are from. I don’t feel they’re being racist when they ask me.

HOWEVER

It’s how it’s perceived by the individual. The lady in question felt it was racist and her feelings cannot be invalidated.

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She asked her 7 times where are you really from. If someone asked me 7 times, I wouldn’t have been as gracious as Ms Fulani was.

Ngozi was a better diplomat than Hussey can dream of.

MaybeMan · 01/12/2022 12:31

If I were a person who was mindful not to even risk causing offence, I would not ask a person of colour 'where they were from' given that the UK has a colonial past & has welcomed those from overseas in the last 100 years too.

This should be pinned.

CousinKrispy · 01/12/2022 12:31

If the OP isn't long gone, I wanted to pick up on something you raised ... that if you were asked this question you'd feel proud of your heritage and enjoy the opportunity to discuss it.

I get where you are coming from (if you're not being subtly goady). I come from another country and really enjoy chatting with fellow foreign-born residents about our backgrounds and our mutual experiences of UK culture, weather, etc.

But I think it's really important not to imply that because someone doesn't want to be questioned about where their parents were born (in a context where that is not relevant to the conversation/event), that means they're ashamed or secretive about their heritage. They may feel just as proud as anyone else but simply not feel like talking about it on that day, or when questioned in a particular way. Implying that if you aren't willing to start sharing your family history with someone you don't know from Adam means you aren't proud of it is deeply problematic.

Also: can everyone on this thread please imagine attending an event like this one. An official at the event suddenly touches your hair without asking permission or saying "Oh, I'm sorry, I can't see your nametag, could you tell me your name?" first. Do you really think that would be a normal and appropriate way to be approached?

MrsFrisbyMouse · 01/12/2022 12:31

Tiiiiiiiiiiired · 01/12/2022 10:58

I am really conflicted about this.

If went to live in Japan (I did live there for 3 years several years ago) I would be expected to be asked about where I'm from because I don't look Japanese (and in fact I was asked many times! I didn't mind at all, it was my choice to be in Japan and I knew I didn't look japanese). If I chose to stay in that country and have children, I'd expect my children would be asked the same, and their children and that although they would be Japanese by birth, I would hope they would be happy to talk about their heritage and where they are from and not mind being asked why they don't look Japanese and what the history is. I wouldnt think it racist and wouldn't want such questions to be stopped because we only learn from others, and about others, by talking and feeling safe to ask questions.

So why in the UK does everyone have to be sooo careful with what they say? This woman has a non English name, was wearing some non western clothing, as was asked about her heritage. Why is this abuse?

We need to stop being so sensitive and allow dialogue.

You have neglected context and cultural sensitivity.

A white woman who is part of "the establishment" approached a guest. Firstly she touched her without permission to reveal the badge (she could have just asked her name) - this alone highlights a huge sense of privilege/entitlement.

And then - when her line of questioning didn't give her the answer she was obviously expecting, seemed to take it as a challenge. Ngozi knew what Lady Hussey was getting at and I think rightly (given the context of the meeting) was right not to just acquiesce and to hold her ground - and if the transcript is right- she also gave Lady Hussey multiple opportunities to alter her language to actually ask about Ngozi's heritage as different from her Nationality.

In the case of being in Japan and having a child - there is no power imbalance here - and also no history of oppression and being exposed to racism - day to day, institutional and historic.

Honestly given the context of the event - Lady Hussey had no reason to be asking about where people are from - this was not a situation of idle chit chat at a dinner party - she could have focused on the work Ngozi was doing - but when faced with a black woman in an "exotic" outfit - she chose to exhibit underlying racism that Ngozi probably deals with daily.

adriftabroad · 01/12/2022 12:32

Oooooooooooooh · 01/12/2022 11:55

I agree with this

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So do I.

TheSnootiestFox · 01/12/2022 12:32

MaryMollyPolly · 01/12/2022 12:28

You’re wrong. You don’t understand what racism is at all.

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Well, as the dictionary definition is 'the belief that different races possess distinct characteristics, abilities, or qualities, especially so as to distinguish them as inferior or superior to one another,' I don't think I'm that wide of the mark!

Squeezita · 01/12/2022 12:32

54isanopendoor · 01/12/2022 12:29

@foggydaysun also makes an important point however.

If I were a person who was mindful not to even risk causing offence, I would not ask a person of colour 'where they were from' given that the UK has a colonial past & has welcomed those from overseas in the last 100 years too.

If I were a priviledged white person representing the Royal Family, I definately wouldn't ask. And I certainly wouldn't push the point as SH clearly did. At that point it becomes really offensive I think.

The mask slipped. I’ve seen it happen in real life, and it’s not pretty.

JudgeJ · 01/12/2022 12:32

DifficultBloodyWoman · 01/12/2022 10:59

Having lived in other non-white countries, I have had the same experience.

But if you're white it doesn't count! A friend who worked in an African country for a few years was universally known as 'the white woman' and she wasn't at all offended!

Shelefttheweb · 01/12/2022 12:32

lieselotte · 01/12/2022 12:26

If it wasn't true, she wouldn't have resigned.

I had forgotten the bit about moving the hair out of the way, that was really outrageous.

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Of course she would have. She is not in a position to defend herself.

Tigofigo · 01/12/2022 12:32

FirewomanSam · 01/12/2022 12:27

I am fascinated by how much of the conversation around this revolves around NF and whether she was in the wrong, whether she was being deliberately obtuse, whether her recollection of the conversation is accurate and even what she was wearing! As a society we seem determined to find ways to minimise racism and find fault with its victims instead of just calling a spade a spade. We still think that calling someone racist is more offensive than actually saying something racist. NF was upset by the conversation, and she has very eloquently expressed why. I think people need to try to really listen to what she says about it and understand her point of view, and resist that deeply-ingrained urge to jump in with ‘oh but…’ at any moment.

Totally this.

Also:

Rich older white royally connected woman talking to younger black working woman invited to the other's soil is already a huge imbalance of power and privilege. The onus is on the most privileged and the host to make guests feel comfortable and welcome.

Coldilox · 01/12/2022 12:33

If you have read the full transcript of what was said, and you don’t think there was a problem with what Lady Hussey said…

you are part of the problem.

knittingaddict · 01/12/2022 12:33

If you google it there are countless articles about the issue of white people touching black people's hair. It's a real thing and set the tone for the subsequent conversation.

TooBigForMyBoots · 01/12/2022 12:33

At the end of the interrogation Lady SH said So you're Carribean. Her refusal to accept that a Ngozi Fulani is British because she is black, is racism.

Slowdayinfleetstreetisit · 01/12/2022 12:33

KvotheTheBloodless · 01/12/2022 12:21

This! Spot on.

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This x 100. I can’t believe people are defending this racist BS. It’s awful.

Luana1 · 01/12/2022 12:33

Why did she even need to draw attention to anyone's race in the first place OP? Why not ask about the charity that NF was there representing, or a million other things that one could make small talk about? Why was it so important to SH to establish NF's ancestry?

Mycatsgoldtooth · 01/12/2022 12:34

I’m in traditional African dress, at a special event celebrating African heritage but I’ll be mortally offended if you ask about my heritage. Bit of cognitive dissonance going on there.

TabithaTittlemouse · 01/12/2022 12:35

If she had simply asked where she was from and accepted the reply that would have been okay.
She didn’t accept the answer.

@Tiiiiiiiiiiired your scenario is not the same thing and it’s ridiculous to think that it is.

Squeezita · 01/12/2022 12:35

TheSnootiestFox · 01/12/2022 12:23

This. Exactly this. Racism, as I understand it, is a person of one race thinking that another person is inferior because they are from a different race. So had SH said, 'Don't be stupid, you can't be from Hackney. Aren't black people stupid?' then that would be appalling and racist. I've been asked 'where the hell are you from?' as a white woman getting on a bus in the US, because as soon as I opened my mouth the driver was curious. Was I offended? Not in the least.

An old lady checking she'd understood correctly by repeating a question that she didn't get the expected answer to, is not racist and whoever she was that was offended needs to grow the fuck up. Exactly the same as the whole Meghan's baby debacle, my dad was born in 1919 and that's exactly the type of question he'd have asked me if I'd have married a black bloke. Not in the context of racism, but because he would have been genuinely curious as to what his grandchildren would look like. Honestly, if you want to be treated equally as a person of colour, then stop playing the race card every time someone old and possibly vulnerable opens their mouth.

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Nice try but that wasn’t what happened. This ‘old lady’ (how ageist by the way) knew exactly what she was doing. See the exchange below, Hussey wasn’t checking she’d understood, she was playing gotcha with Ms Fulani. You can see this when Hussey says ‘Oh, I knew we’d get there in the end’. Repulsive behaviour.

Lady SH: Where are you from?
Me: Sistah Space.
SH: No, where do you come from?
Me: We’re based in Hackney.
SH: No, what part of Africa are YOU from?
Me: I don’t know, they didn’t leave any records.
SH: Well, you must know where you’re from, I spent time in France. Where are you from?
Me: Here, UK
SH: NO, but what Nationality are you?
Me: I am born here and am British.
SH: No, but where do you really come from, where do your people come from?
Me: ‘My people’, lady, what is this?
SH: Oh I can see I am going to have a challenge getting you to say where you’re from. When did you first come here?
Me: Lady! I am a British national, my parents came here in the 50s when …
SH: Oh, I knew we’d get there in the end, you’re Caribbean!
Me: No Lady, I am of African heritage, Caribbean descent and British nationality

GerbilsForever24 · 01/12/2022 12:35

Mycatsgoldtooth · 01/12/2022 12:34

I’m in traditional African dress, at a special event celebrating African heritage but I’ll be mortally offended if you ask about my heritage. Bit of cognitive dissonance going on there.

Sorry what?

It wasn't traditional african dress.
It wasn't an event to celebrate African heritage.

PineappleWilson · 01/12/2022 12:36

This was a gathering in relation to charities supporting women and girls who are victims of abuse. To me, any form of small talk that doesn't start with, "tell me about your work in this area" is wide of the mark. Lady H didn't need to ask the lady's name at all, but could have done so verbally, not moving her hair to see the name badge. If you don't have an interest in this area, don't agree to be one of the palance representatives doing the small talk for this event.