Does the UK have a racism problem?

[JolllyBee]

In just the last 24 hours alone we've had in the news:

Prince William’s godmother quits palace over comments to black charity boss

Meghan Markle had several 'disgusting' and credible threats to her life, Met cop reveals

Various people's census rants going viral and getting a scary amount of support

James McAvoy shocked by hometown racism in Glasgow after castmates abused on street

and a few days prior:

London Fire Brigade houses a toxic culture of bullying, racism and misogyny, inquiry finds

Some of the comments on this thread prove that there is racism in this country

Of course there is.

Racism exists everywhere.

It's a bit of a loaded question. To answer 'YABU' you'd have to think a) there isn't any racism in the UK b) that racism isn't a problem. But are our institutions racist?

You've just proved my point though.

As soon as someone is accused of being racist, they're stained with that forevermore. There's nothing they can say that would be enough to prove they're not racist. They deny it, they're racist. They don't deny it, they're racist.

So accusing someone of racism means that the accused is absolutely racist with no chance of a comeback.

Yeah, I can't foresee any problems with that at all.

And to answer the OP, there is racism absolutely everywhere in the world, including in the UK.

"The Dummies Guide on How to be Racist and Get Away With It"

But I'm bit getting away with anything am I? You still tell me I am racist, I still have to hear it. If I actually say or do anything racist I can still be prosecuted. I just know I am not and so won't believe or absorb those accusations from some people who happen to follow a different discourse around race than I do. That you call me racist is not meaningless to me, but your belief in what that word means is. Iyswim? I know what you're trying to force me to take on, but I just won't, I can't because I don't hold those beliefs 🤷🏼‍♀️

It's perfectly possible to have an issue with both, you know?

@PlinkPlonkFizz its better to Have an issue with here and now that can be changed is it not? We can't change history only learn from it and why are british people know being blamed for history ? Don't see many blaming spanish , Portuguese etc . It wasn't the world we live in now

Certainly but the issue with the BE hangover is in the here and now. It's a superiority in some that can be racist or xenophobic.

@DailyMaui yet I come from a similar area and know many that grew up in that area and live there now and its not how it is now or was in the 90's even
Times change

Good. I'm so glad it has changed....

Or has it? Especially with all that gentrification. Remember all those wealthy people pissed off about Grenfell victims being housed in naice apartments near them? I do. My parents had dealings with Kensington & Chelsea Council for years and they openly admitted putting non white families in worse housing. My issue is that scratch the surface and some of those awful prejudices - that were so common when I lived there - come seeping out. Which is what has happened over the last few years.

My office moved near there and I still see a few of the same awful people around. And I had to intervene when two men started racially abusing a woman wearing a hijab. She was with her children too. I have come across a few old mutuals from that time. They may have moved away from that North Kensington estate, but their shitty, bigoted views persist. Honestly every time i hear people spout about "being genetically English" and "ruining our English culture" it spins me right back to being told I don't belong and to fuck off back home. And I'm white! I cannot imagine how bad it is for those who are not. Or perceived to be non white. There is a particularly nasty subculture who hates everyone who isn't English and believes in English superiority in all ways.

And yes there are racist Scots too and they also can fuck right off.

Well, I probs wouldn't say this at work but if I'm honest I'm a bit sceptical about why people seem to care a lot more about the slavery of centuries past than actual current slavery which is happening as I type this.

I agree you can care about more than one thing at once, and bigger issues don't mean that that we shouldn't also look at smaller issues. However, I do find it hard not to wonder if some people prefer focusing on historic slavery because it allows them to paint their ancestors as the victims and by extension themselves. It's not quite as poignant when you're talking about what happened to other unrelated individuals and group.

I don't doubt that past slavery has had a far reaching sociological impact, but I'll always prioritise the rights of people currently in slavery than those of the great great great grandchildren of slaves who aren't/never were actually enslaved themselves but feel a bit disadvantaged.

Honestly, I'd question the moral compass of anybody who prioritised the latter.

Two posts from one poster already minimising.

I agree with your theory (observation?). There is clearly an media agenda to divide by race (rather than focus on class or sex for example). I feel that it is working to an extent, but also that is is having a (maybe non-deliberate?) negative affect on the mental health of black people in this country (UK).

A small example is that no-one challenged the assertion that only black and brown people are ever asked 'but where are you really from? That would never happen to a white person.'

As anyone white who doesn't look typically 'white English' can tell you, we are all asked that question. Often by black or brown people actually. Usually as a point of interest and conversation. I am not saying it is never asked in a racist way, just that it often is just curiosity, polite conversation or a way of finding common ground.

That has been said on this threads and the ones similar to this one. Examples have also been given.

I question those who ignore the factual repercussions and still remaining (conscious and unconscious) bias treatment that still remains against those that were enslaved nor want to make it into an either/or situation or one is more deserving of attention than others when issues are still ongoing on both sides.

*that had enslaved ancestors

@phoenixrosehere - I meant when it was raised on the TV interviews about the incident. But I only saw interviews by a white English looking presenter and an Asian heritage presenter, so no presenter of Spanish, Greek, Jewish, Italian, Turkish, Scandinavian, to make that point on the TV.

But you can be racist and not be prosecuted, a la Lady Hussey. Including those who agree with her, like you.

Trust me, no one has any illusion that you care about ethnic minorities. Weird that you’re so gleeful about it. Get some hobbies.

I think the thing is, 'does uk hav a racism problem?' Of course it does! Just like it has a huge wealth gap problem and all kinds of other problems. But is the London Fire Brigade having a toxic culture of racism on the same level of threat as an 86-year-old woman just not getting it?

Why do you say the 83yo doesn’t get it?

She knew exactly what she was doing. As soon as Ms Fulani said ‘my parents came here in the 50s’, this ‘old lady’ made the connection to the Windrush generation of thr 1950s and went aha, Caribbean! How can you say she doesn’t get it?

Me: Lady! I am a British national, my parents came here in the 50s when …
SH: Oh, I knew we’d get there in the end, you’re Caribbean!

My friend is mixed race, and very beautiful. Once, while we had stopped to chat on the pavement in passing, an elderly lady interrupted us to ask where she was from. She explained (Mediterranean and India, born in UK) and then excused herself to get to a local shop before it closed.
The elderly lady then turned to me and said, “I had to ask, she is so beautiful! What a beautiful girl!”, and I kind of mumbled my excuses and walked away. When I bumped into my friend again about 15 minutes later, I did ask her if she had found that level of questioning intrusive, and whether she considered the EL’s question to be racist, as I had certainly felt uncomfortable for her. She said that she really wasn’t offended in the slightest, as she often gets asked!
It did make me (definitely white - only exotic roots here are from Ireland and France,) really uneasy though.

Should I have said something to the EL? Or would that be being offended on behalf of?

It's not that I agree with her, it's more that, being White British, I can recognise what might have been happened here because these thing can be difficult to negotiate. As a white person you're supposed to find out about people's different cultural backgrounds so that you don't exclude people accidentally by just assuming that they think like you about everything - that whole ignoring someone's colour being a form of racism thing. However, if you ask about someone's family background - the 'where do you come from?' question - that's racism too, because you're seeing the colour of their skin and making their cultural heritage more important than their British identity. For a white British person their cultural heritage and what's on their passport is the same thing, so they're not very good and understanding the difference.

Perhaps Lady whatever her name is made a train wreck of that conversation because she's a well-meaning but rather overbearing old lady who genuinely wanted to know where the younger woman's family had emigrated from so she could understand more about her experiences in the UK as someone with that background. Or perhaps she's just a nasty, bullying racist who doesn't think ethnic minorities really belong in Britain and will only tolerate them if they know their place. I don't know her, so I can't judge just from that conversation.

The palace are embarassed because they should give people a few hints on how to deal with these sensitive issues before letting them loose on this type of event.

@Notjustanymum I think the difference there was the lady only asked once. Had your friend replied Manchester for example, and the lady kept asking her where was really from, that would have been unreasonable.

I don't know what you mean. I found the conversation quite odd - especially the bit about 'you must know where you're from, I spent some time in France'. Does she think she comes from France because she lived there for a while? Or does she mean her ancestors came from France? Was she born in France? What on earth was she on about? She sounds really confused and quite dotty.

Thanks @Squeezita, I think I was so taken aback at the time that I didn’t really think about the context!