to think the census data on religion should mean some changes to how we view the Church of England in this country

[cakeorwine]

ONS data on religion released today

For the first time in a census of England and Wales, less than half of the population (46.2%, 27.5 million people) described themselves as “Christian”, a 13.1 percentage point decrease from 59.3% (33.3 million) in 2011; despite this decrease, “Christian” remained the most common response to the religion question.

“No religion” was the second most common response, increasing by 12.0 percentage points to 37.2% (22.2 million) from 25.2% (14.1 million) in 2011.

You can find out about your area here

www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/culturalidentity/religion/bulletins/religionenglandandwales/census2021

An interesting map is available - you can zoom in to local areas
The number of Christians is falling. Still a high percentage but less than half the population of England and Wales say they are Christian.

Christianity could mean Catholicism, C of E and other Christian faiths.

So should this mean we look at 'the State Religion', having Bishops in the House of Lords and the link between the Monarch being the Head of the Church of England. Basically - look at distestablishing the Church of England from the State.

Where I live, the only option is to send your child to a CofE Primary School. All the surrounding towns and villages are badged as CofE schools. Religion is very much evident as you walk around the school - in fact it's far more evident at my local school now than it was when my own DS went there (he left 15 years ago).
Not quite sure how you change that though. No one is in the business of building new schools around here inspite of vast amounts of house building in the local town.

A guaranteed place in the House of Lords for someone who has studied ethics and has worked on the ground with people in need is necessary for safeguarding the most vulnerable in our society.

You can count on the clergy speaking up for ethics, morals and virtues. You can’t say that for others.

To counter your point. The clergy’s compulsory presence guarantees the vulnerable in society have a chance to an equal footing.

Of course the CofE should be disestablished and the bishops removed from the Lord's. But we should also abolish all faith schools to remove religious segregation. It's good news that people are moving away from Christian religion which has been responsible for so much persecution and bloodshed in history and has often stood in the way of progress.

I think you could change it by taking away state funding for church schools unless they agree to become fully inclusive. It should also become illegal to give any sort of preference for school places based on religion.

Republic explain that being head of the church gives the monarchy legitimacy.

I think the comparison with Brexit is apt because it’s about a change that is hard to predict because it’s so established in the fabric of society. A lot of people voting for Brexit didn’t think it would make any actual difference either… and now look. The country is poorer for Brexit - and they’ll be poorer in spirit and ethics without faith.

You can count on the clergy speaking up for ethics, morals and virtues

You may want to check the voting records on various issues - their 'ethics' are not always creditable. As for 'safeguarding the most vulnerable' - wow. They're just about starting to face up to their child abuse and coverups.

@Suffrajitsu There are no religious criteria for entry to any of the schools here - probably because there is no other choice. We don't even have a Catholic Primary school.

The Christian religion is about Jesus Christ’s teaching… your comments suggests you don’t know much about the faith.

People are guilty of persecution and bloodshed. And, quite frankly, if it’s not religion it’ll be another front that people would use to justify persecution and bloodshed.

Do not blame the Christian faith itself.

And if you want to blame Christianity for bad things then at least balance your viewpoint by recognising the good the church has done too. Charity, fairness and kindness come through Christian faith too.

I think the comparison with Brexit is apt because it’s about a change that is hard to predict because it’s so established in the fabric of society. A lot of people voting for Brexit didn’t think it would make any actual difference either… and now look
Most of the effects of brexit were not in the least 'hard to predict', they were blatantly obvious. Why people either wilfully ignored them or didn't understand I don't know but that's a completely different set of issues.

Being religious is not a guarantee of good ethics, if you think that then you really are delusional. I've met many nasty, spiteful people who are incredibly judgemental but insist that they are also somehow better than those who either reject their form of religion or religion in general. I've also met many kind, helpful, good people who are atheists.

The bible is a work of fiction and so as such any morals and ethics it (in many cases, highly dubiously) teaches come from man, not some higher power.

The church or any other religion has no greater claim on being ethical than any other person or organisation.

In a country which clearly is now secular in all but name and has been for many years it's time to recognise that officially.

People are guilty of persecution and bloodshed. And, quite frankly, if it’s not religion it’ll be another front that people would use to justify persecution and bloodshed.

It's the combination of religion with the state that's the problem. The atrocities in Tudor times are surely a good argument for separating church and state, for instance.

The problem with ‘ethics’ is that it’s a grey area. You are not the judge of all ethics.

In considering other peoples views on ethics I am keen to understand their reasoning. How deep do their ethics go?

I agree that cover-ups are awful. If there is a lack of accountability and a lack of punishment for wrongdoing then the clergy clearly need to sort that out if they want credibility and trust.

But you’re behaving as if cover ups are unique to the church. Cover ups are in any large organisation that wants to save face.

Power corrupts and power corrupts absolutely; this is why we need checks and balances.

I think you could change it by taking away state funding for church schools unless they agree to become fully inclusive. It should also become illegal to give any sort of preference for school places based on religion.

Isn't that already pretty much the case with many VC as opposed to VA schools?

But you’re behaving as if cover ups are unique to the church.

I'm doing nothing of the sort. It's you who are holding the church up as deserving of its special privilege. I wouldn't discriminate against religious people as representatives in our second chamber, just wouldn't automatically privilege them.

We are no longer in Tudor times… even the monarchy has changed since Tudor times. Is your best frame of reference really the Tudors?!

Talk about scraping the bottom of the barrel.

If you want to look at all the instances where the combination of church and state are bad, then you also need to balance it by looking at the examples where they are good too.

I don't understand this. Henry VIII was the reason the CofE exists. Because he wanted to try out a different wife. I've never understood how the CofE reconciles this with any supposed moral authority.

“I wouldn't discriminate against religious people as representatives in our second chamber”

Why don’t I believe you?

If you don’t like religion then it’s likely that will influence your judgement regardless of how good the clergy representative may be. Humans have biases. And chances are, no one wants the virtue signaller there to be a party pooper… but sometimes there’s a need for a a virtue signaller.

Seems like the automatic privileges safeguard the clergy from religious discrimination.

I agree that the Church of England as an institution has weak foundations as it’s based on Henry VIII wanting a new wife.

Henry VIII acted politically. But the faith is about the spirituality.

The Christian faith is a separate point to the church.

Your last few posts are a perfect summary of religion and the religious.

The religous - "We deserve a special place in society because of how much good we do and how righteous we are."

Society - "what about all those awful things you've done over the years?"

R - "Shhhhhh we don't talk about those things, let's just focus on the nice bits and anyway other people have done bad things too."

S - "We didn't say others hadn't but we're talking about you and why we don't think you deserve a special place anymore"

R (singing now with fingers in their ears) - "Chaaaaaaarity, faith, good christian waaaaays, don't have an abortion or you'll burn in hell like the gaaaaays."

S - 👀

@HardRock
Your comment is an argument in favour of disestablishment.

I completely agree.

That’s very twisted and not true. This is why I can’t argue sensibly with people who have already made up their minds.

I wish you all the best with your social experiment. And for the sake of the most vulnerable and needy in society, I hope it works well.

Before I leave. I came to faith because the church was the only community who reached out willingly to help me in adversity. It was the community that I noticed most. I felt welcomed at church at a time I felt rejected everywhere else. This is why I worry what would happen to vulnerable people if the Christian faith was lost in society and community.

Yep I agree 100% we should be a secular state. This is as a Christian/member of a CoE church.

Why don’t I believe you?

No idea, other than that you don't know me.

A secular state means no privilege and no discrimination.