to think the census data on religion should mean some changes to how we view the Church of England in this country

[cakeorwine]

ONS data on religion released today

For the first time in a census of England and Wales, less than half of the population (46.2%, 27.5 million people) described themselves as “Christian”, a 13.1 percentage point decrease from 59.3% (33.3 million) in 2011; despite this decrease, “Christian” remained the most common response to the religion question.

“No religion” was the second most common response, increasing by 12.0 percentage points to 37.2% (22.2 million) from 25.2% (14.1 million) in 2011.

You can find out about your area here

www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/culturalidentity/religion/bulletins/religionenglandandwales/census2021

An interesting map is available - you can zoom in to local areas
The number of Christians is falling. Still a high percentage but less than half the population of England and Wales say they are Christian.

Christianity could mean Catholicism, C of E and other Christian faiths.

So should this mean we look at 'the State Religion', having Bishops in the House of Lords and the link between the Monarch being the Head of the Church of England. Basically - look at distestablishing the Church of England from the State.

@Thebestwaytoscareatory ”And of course human nature changes, if it didn't we'd still be living as hunter gatherers.”

‘"You can't change human nature." The old cliché draws support from the persistence of human behavior in new circumstances. Shakespeare's plays reveal that no matter how much language, technology and mores have changed in the past 400 years, human nature is largely undisturbed. Macbeth's ambition, Hamlet's indecision, Iago's jealousy, Kate's feistiness and Juliet's love are all instantly understandable.’ - WSJ

Plenty of countries don't have a state religion and haven't turned into the Thunderdome quite yet.

We've moved on from needing gods or a god to act as a central authority figure to control populations

Who needs God when we have Bezos, Gates, Greta, WEF, WHO et all. Those will do for now for some I guess?

Where does the rule of law and democracy come from?! Is it a human invention?

Yes, of course.

As are religions.

Well they do actually exist. That's a good start.

I’m not sure God’s existence is key… I think it’s the idea of God’s existence that has power. It plays to the seductive idea of the unknown and humans love mystery.

The people and organisations listed there don’t quite carry the same mystique of God.

God is a bit like the wizard in Wizard of Oz. The idea of this mythical wizard had so much power for the characters and audience. But finding out who he was became a disappointment.

God, like the wizard of oz, best serves humans as a mythical mystery.

But religions realised they needed the idea of a God for moral force of their institutions.

People and populations don’t just follow the rule of law and democracy because they’re told ‘these are the rules’ because they’ve got free will to do whatever they want. There had to be some moral force to persuade people to be obedient.

People are not code that accept instructions without questioning or resistance if they’re not happy.

But religions realised they needed the idea of a God for moral force of their institutions

Buddhism didn't.
Confucianism (which isn't exactly a religion I suppose) didn't.

Buddhism realised they needed something more… that’s why they have nirvana. It’s still aspiring to something beyond or above the range of normal or physical human experience.

I don’t know enough about Confucianism.

There are also nuances and complexities that allow these systems and ideas to work.

Yes, many books are missing or rather were rejected by the early church as they didn't fit the narrative those early leaders wanted.

Population control and control of a population are two very different things, I wasn't talking about the former and the remaining religions of the world's certainly don't give a fuck about that either.

The bible in its present state is nothing of the sort! It's a translation of a translation of a translation of a bunch of stories about events that took place hundreds of years before they were written down. Concepts fundamental to modern Christianity such as hell weren't even mentioned in the earliest versions of the bible, even when it first emerged it wasnt a place of eternal damnation for sinners but another version of hades or sheol were all souls go after the body dies. The punishment version of hell only appeared when the church realised they needed a new way to scare people into doing what they wanted.

And in response to your other post, modern humans have been around 200,000 years. We've practiced sedentism for around 12,000 years. I'm not sure why you'd only consider the past 400 years as the basis for your stance that human nature can't change (it really really does).

Oooh

Let's look at the data

For the first time in a census of England and Wales, less than half of the population (46.2%, 27.5 million people) described themselves as “Christian”, a 13.1 percentage point decrease from 59.3% (33.3 million) in 2011; despite this decrease, “Christian” remained the most common response to the religion question

So there were 33.3 million people in 2011 who said they were Christian and 27.5 million people in 2021

No religion” was the second most common response, increasing by 12.0 percentage points to 37.2% (22.2 million) from 25.2% (14.1 million) in 2011.

So 14.1 million in 2011 and 22.2 million in 2021

Looks to me like fewer people said they were Christian in 2021 compared to 2011.

www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/culturalidentity/religion/bulletins/religionenglandandwales/census2021

ONS interpretation

There are many factors that may be contributing to the changing religious composition of England and Wales, such as differing patterns of ageing, fertility, mortality, and migration. Changes may also be caused by differences in the way individuals chose to answer the religion question between censuses.

They seem to be missing out people who stopped believing.

@Thebestwaytoscareatory ”And in response to your other post, modern humans have been around 200,000 years. We've practiced sedentism for around 12,000 years. I'm not sure why you'd only consider the past 400 years as the basis for your stance that human nature can't change (it really really does).”

Well you can go further back… it boils down to how we can still relate to human nature and human emotions from hundreds and thousands of years ago. Why do you think people still read Homer who was writing thousands of years ago?

I’m happy for you to demonstrate how human nature really does change. But there is a persistence of human behavior in new circumstances throughout human existence and that’s why we can relate to ancient people.

But the confusion here might be the definition of what you think human nature means.

@Thebestwaytoscareatory ”The bible in its present state is nothing of the sort! It's a translation of a translation of a translation of a bunch of stories about events that took place hundreds of years before they were written down.”

Is this with reference to the bible being a great work of literature?!

Are you serious? The bible has an enduring hold on the literary canon and modern literature. dc.etsu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1696&context=honors

Translated or not, the Bible is a literary book. Most of it is embodied in the genres of narrative, poetry, letters, and visionary writing.
The Bible’s Influence: The Bible as Literature

Are you next going to claim that Homer’s works aren’t great works of literature because they’ve been translated?

It’s also the quality of the stories that matter. And the translations are fascinating for showing the way language and meaning evolves over time.

I would think that that comes under "Changes may also be caused by differences in the way individuals chose to answer the religion question between censuses."

The ONS are trying to say that the changes might be caused either by different groups of people answering the questions (mortality, fertility, migration) or the same people answering the question differently between censuses. (I'm a statistician, and that is how I'd read it, a remarkably dry take in a way.)

It would depend on how good the translation is to be honest, the original bible and it's stories may well be great works of fiction, I don't believe the current version(s) are. Many of the stories have been twisted and changed to fit whatever narrative the church has is peddling at the time. If modern translations of the Odyssey or the Iliad twist and change it's content then I wouldn't consider those translations to be great literature either.

I'm also not really sure what this has to do with the separation of religion and state or that, in my opinion, modern laws and governance should be influenced by the translation of a translation (etc) of a 1700 year old book?

I haven't read the thread because as an Anglican I find the subject a little painful but I would like to share the dream I had last night, probably triggered by the census.

I was passing the ruins of a church that had been pulled down, and realised I'd passed it a week before - a handsome Victorian gothic building and I'd wondered if it had a congregation of more than 20. Well, I saw the congregation in a car park over the road. There were indeed about 20 of them and the priest was wearing cats ears and a tail over her vestments.

Not sure what to make of the dream, but it didn't seem at all positive.

@Thebestwaytoscareatory ”It would depend on how good the translation is to be honest, the original bible and it's stories may well be great works of fiction, I don't believe the current version(s) are. Many of the stories have been twisted and changed to fit whatever narrative the church has is peddling at the time. If modern translations of the Odyssey or the Iliad twist and change it's content then I wouldn't consider those translations to be great literature either.”

Translators are professionals; they generally don’t “twist” when they translate. It’s just that there’s a degree of interpretation in any translation because that’s the nature of human languages.

Emily Wilson became the first woman to translate the Odyssey and her interpretation was different to the translators who had gone before. That didn’t mean she “twisted” it, it just meant she had a different understanding and interpretation during her translation. And it’s completely valid.

The Odyssey translated by Emily Wilson review – a new cultural landmarkThe first version of Homer’s groundbreaking work by a woman will change our understanding of it for ever

Translation is an art form too.

I think it's true to say that some translations of the Bible do reflect the translators' theological views a bit too strongly. The NIV is quite bad for this.

@Thebestwaytoscareatory ”I'm also not really sure what this has to do with the separation of religion and state or that, in my opinion, modern laws and governance should be influenced by the translation of a translation (etc) of a 1700 year old book?”

You seem to have a problem with translations being legitimate literature.

A lot of modern laws and governance derive terminology and phrases from Latin.

A 1,7000 year old book says something about the understructure of our modern laws and governance. That book is also sworn on in the legal system too. Not bad going for being 1,7000 years old.

I hear biblegateway.com is useful for comparing the different translations.

A 1,7000 year old book says something about the understructure of our modern laws and governance. That book is also sworn on in the legal system too. Not bad going for being 1,7000 years old

It's one of them. You can pick other books. Or none at all.
www.gov.uk/guidance/what-to-expect-coming-to-a-court-or-tribunal

f you’re giving evidence during the hearing you will be asked to swear an oath or make a legally binding promise (known as an affirmation) that your evidence will be true.
The usher will read out the oath and ask you to repeat the words after them. The relevant holy book will be placed in front of you, but you will not need to touch the book.

Affirmations are equally solemn, significant and come with the same responsibilities as a religious oath. If you prefer to affirm, the usher will read out the affirmation and ask you to repeat the words after them.

........................................................................................................................

I must have missed the bits of the Bible that aren't used in our legal system. There certainly seems to be a difference between the Old Testament and the New Testament.

And I guess that justice and laws existed before Christianity and the Bible. And also existed in other societies with different belief systems.

I do wonder what Jesus would make of people who say they are Christians today. Some people seem to follow his teachings. Others seem to have forgotten his messages.

The NRSV is considered the most accurate translation by the School of Divinity at St Andrews university.

The one I normally refer to at home is the Revised English Bible. I don't know how well that stacks up but as I was given it by a priest I've assumed it's OK.

You’re always best analysing dreams yourself through practised discursive meditation techniques.it’s your mind which has used the symbols so best for your mind to unravel.

My take in this dream would be Gods people exist outside of organised religion. Even where the church/organised religion is destroyed people will continue to have a belief and they will gather together. However, beware who you listen to for spiritual guidance (black cats in Christianity are often associated with Lucifer and demons). Alternatively it could be telling you to see balance WB Yeats had a motto, the devil is the inverse of God. The priest here has elements of God and the devil.

if I’d had this dream I would be quite drawn towards the balance between light and dark found in many esoteric Christian ideas.