to think the census data on religion should mean some changes to how we view the Church of England in this country

[cakeorwine]

ONS data on religion released today

For the first time in a census of England and Wales, less than half of the population (46.2%, 27.5 million people) described themselves as “Christian”, a 13.1 percentage point decrease from 59.3% (33.3 million) in 2011; despite this decrease, “Christian” remained the most common response to the religion question.

“No religion” was the second most common response, increasing by 12.0 percentage points to 37.2% (22.2 million) from 25.2% (14.1 million) in 2011.

You can find out about your area here

www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/culturalidentity/religion/bulletins/religionenglandandwales/census2021

An interesting map is available - you can zoom in to local areas
The number of Christians is falling. Still a high percentage but less than half the population of England and Wales say they are Christian.

Christianity could mean Catholicism, C of E and other Christian faiths.

So should this mean we look at 'the State Religion', having Bishops in the House of Lords and the link between the Monarch being the Head of the Church of England. Basically - look at distestablishing the Church of England from the State.

I live in France where the state and church are separate. My children attend local schools, which are completely laïque. No prayers, no assemblies, no visits from the minister, no end of term service, no Carol service. No mention of religion in teaching except in history / geography. I love it tbh. I don’t have to fake belief that I don’t hold to get my kids into a good local school, and they don’t get indoctrinated.

however, there are many religious schools here, all private, mostly Catholic but also Jewish and Muslim ones. The Catholic ones have a reputation for being stricter than the state schools, which some parents prefer. The teachers also pride themselves on being more dedicated to their students - which seems to translate mostly into not striking when the education National teachers do. It’s clear that the old social hierarchies operate through the biggest and most highly regarded of the Catholic privées, at least in my city which is renowned for being very conservative and Catholic: for some, sending their kids to these schools is very important as it gets them into the ‘right’ circles. Other parents just see the privées as a way to avoid the worst of underperforming local schools. The fees aren’t high, and the schools are funded by the government.

As long as the civil ceremonies are much improved! I’ve been to all kinds of ceremonies and the civil ones were by far the worst! Not in anyway personal and the officiant was just in a rush to get to their next paid job!
Do other countries do it better?

I am pro-secularism, definitely. That doesn't mean banning the CofE or Christianity at all, it just means the Church should be separate from State. People forget that our morality doesn't just come from Christianity, it comes from our own innate sense of right and wrong. Also, whilst we have a long-standing relationship with Christianity in this country, we also have many other faiths here that people find guidance from. The Bishops in the HoL having votes and vetoes on Bills that turn into law is an outdated privilege.

I'm an atheist. Was christened according to tradition rather than faith. Attended a CofE school because there were no other types in the area I grew up in. Never got confirmed because I realised I didn't believe in it. But am I still Christian because I was christened? No. Some might say yes. On my mother's side there hasn't been a strong religious conviction since my great-grandmother's time. My dad's side is a bit more religious. His mother did a lot for her church, my uncle is a devotee, and my aunt organised a funeral for her husband with a vicar and prayers, despite not attending church unless for important life events. My dad is agnostic. He's already planned his Humanist funeral. He's Christian by birth, confirmed like his siblings, but is he still a Christian? Again, maybe yes, maybe no.

My DH and I were married in the register office, I didn't feel that it lacked anything as being,non-religious ,for us, we were adhering to legal requirements. As I said if people want religious stuff then do that after, but the civil ceremony was started to give those of us with no religion a legal framework to be married. Until 1836 all marriages had to be religious in nature and civil marriages were opposed strenuously by the CofE. A simple statement and declaration was enough for us and I think keeping it that way is best.

Other countries seem to cope.

I am sure that we could figure out justice without having to involve the Church of England.

Who has said that religious schools would stop?
No issue with religions running schools.

There is a question over villages where there is just 1 choice of school and it's a church school. And that is historic due to the role of the church in providing schools.

You don't have to be religious to speak up for the vulnerable.

At times, it seems that people who claim to be religious forget about the vulnerable.

I disagree with religious schools, I was sent to one, it was the only choice my parents had. I came out an atheist. Constantly being berated for not conforming to their belief system did it for me. Parents should be the ones who decide on religion and whether they attend church etc, teach comparative religions in school but don't promote one over the other. In my case neither parent really believed ,but the school did my head in.

I don't know if this has been mentioned, as I've only skim read previous posts. But most faith schools are dual funded, they take less out of the government pot because the faith to which they belong help with funding. It's one of the reasons these schools often have better or more updated facilities than centrally funded schools. (
Our primary is C of E. a few years ago it needed a new roof. The church agreed to fund 65% of the cost. Christian, Muslim and Jewish schools are often better funded than their state counter parts.

Totally agree with the commonality of human subconscious-it’s a concept which has been tapped into through millennia of meditation. It’s the source of a perenial philosophy which is expressed differently through time an geography.

I find it interesting that you use Eastern spiritual terminology. I think this is possibly one of the dangers that people reject one cultural back ground for another, whether it be eastern philosophy (often incorrectly sold to the cross phobic as secular/scientific (“quantum physics is proving what we’ve always known” said every Sunday morning yoga teacher).

Psychology to that extent is just another language for this truth that’s transcended time. I guess the problem.l isn’t anyone who goes deep into any philosophy of how this all works (it’s basically linguistic framing) but where people dabble it’s difficult to control without a framework. Religion for example provides this.

I spend hours every week meditating (I practice discursive meditation which is more common in western practices rather than mind emptying). It’s easy for the mind to stray and things come up where it’s useful to have a framework. If that framework is psychology, religion, spirituality, philosophy etc it doesn’t really matter

ArseInTheCoOpWindow ·
Yes absolutely. The thread on Rememberence Sunday really highlighted this.

Could you expand or link the thread please?

I’m torn by the shop opening hours debate. I sometimes think that if we had the old quiet/nothing doing Sundays of old it might help by providing a bit of down time and help with people’s stress and anxiety. At the same time maybe people would be more stressed by not being able to shop at a convenient time for them. Not sure what would be best for shop workers etc though.

I think the thing that the State (and the C of E) needs to remember is:

a) A lot of the country are not religious
b) Those who are religious are not necessarily Christian
c) Those who are Christian are not necessarily C of E

So that should be taken on board when it comes to 'State' stuff.

As far as I understand it it is legally quite complicated to disestablish the C of E. It doesn't mean it can't be done but it isn't a decision at tea time and do it next day.

There are some pragmatic issues around schools. The C of E owns the land which the schools are on. Is the government going to stump up billions to buy the land off the church? It would solve the financial problems of the dioceses, but that might seem a step too far in these financially precarious times.

The presence of bishops in the House of Lords upsets some people. What it gives the governance of the country is a group of people who have actually studied ethics and have usually worked on the ground as parish priests dealing with the people who fall through the cracks in the system. How do you replace one of the checks and balances in our constitutional system if you remove them?

Shopping on a Sunday will not change in the U.K. due to economic reasons, it’s a day worth £billions long hours will come in for Sunday trading to help boost the economy. I don’t like it but it’s what will happen

our entire constitution monarchy would have to be changed to remove king as head of church. After the brexit nightmare I can’t see people would be willing for more unknown change.

Online shopping is 24/7.

There's a movement called Sunday Assembly that organises secular Sunday services. A friend of mine goes to our local one and she really enjoys it.

our entire constitution monarchy would have to be changed to remove king as head of church. After the brexit nightmare I can’t see people would be willing for more unknown change.

The monarch is the head of all sorts of things, I don't see there's any fundamental reason he still couldn't be. It might make a difference to the CofE if it wasn't tied to the monarchy but the comparison to brexit is odd. What actual differences would it make to people? (Other than good ones like fairer school admissions hopefully).

The presence of bishops in the House of Lords upsets some people. What it gives the governance of the country is a group of people who have actually studied ethics and have usually worked on the ground as parish priests dealing with the people who fall through the cracks in the system. How do you replace one of the checks and balances in our constitutional system if you remove them?

No, it's the automatic places which are the problem. There would be no reason whatever why some bishops (along with other religious or secularist leaders) shouldn't still be eligible to be part of the second chamber but on an equal footing to the rest.

There are only 2 legislatures where clerics sit in government, UK and Iran. I think that says it all for me.

The church goes beyond simply speaking up for the vulnerable. Where I live the church is probably the only institution advocating a community and social conscience to care for the vulnerable.

People are inherently selfish. People sometimes need a bit of spiritual guidance to be there for others in need… it’s very sad.

“You don't have to be religious to speak up for the vulnerable.”

In the debates I’ve seen, the church is the one group that can be counted on to speak up for the vulnerable consistently. The church doesn’t speak up for the needy to earn brownie points in a debate; they speak up for the vulnerable because it’s at the core of the Christian faith.

Without the church and Christian ethos offering a moral framework, I would worry about the most vulnerable in society.

This is separate to religion though even if it's history is from there

Do we really want the stress and cost of a 24*7 society ?

I don't

No one is getting rid of the C of E

But separating church and state would do this. Monarch being head of both!

Does nobody remember Henry VIII?

And FFS! Iran?!?!

People can hold 2 jobs

You could appoint someone else as head of the c of e

Aargh! Posted too soon

Iran?? What does it take to make that comparison? How bloody deluded, shallow of thought etc? Iran! Think that through!

@pursuedbyablackdog that's part of the problem, corruption. The religious schools often get funding from their respective institutions, and this is why they have power and control given to them by the government.