Be honest: Do you think single and childfree people are less than?

[Sonervousimgonnathrowup]

I am that person.
It suits me.
But fucking hell do I get comments, questions and often it seems like I’m treated like a second-class citizen.

Do people still today look down on single / childfree people?

I didn't really notice in the Uk but since I moved to Austria hell yeah....
I'm the weird spinster in the village. Lots of people are very nice to me but it's difficult to make friendships and especially with women my age who have children. They view me with suspicion - wondering if I'll try to steal their man. And I really do feel the condescension and the questioning (sometimes out loud, sometimes just in their heads) as to why I've never had children.
The men view me as some kind of sex object - ie. I must be desperate for a man so they can try it on.

I don't give a flying fuck. I never wanted children and knew that from a very young age. I've had two long term relationships while I was here - they didn't work out. Now I'm single and don't want another relationship. I'm perfectly content with my choices.
However, there very definitely is an attitude that I am of less value and a useless woman because I don't have a husband and family.

I think it’s good you are self aware and honest to people you are dating

Your post neatly encapsulates the issue.

I can't speak for all child-free people but I don't want or need parents to be supportive, I just want their response to my response to their comments (because the examples I gave in the post you quoted are things said to childfree people by others) not to be deliberately negative and unsupportive. What's wrong with, "Fair enough" as a response to "No, I don't want children"? I don't think anyone would expect a parent to say "Christ yes, I wish I'd never bothered"

To use your rather disingenuous example, if I was vegetarian and went to a steak restaurant I wouldn't expect for them to say "You're right, we will immediately now only sell lentils and salads" but nor would I expect to be told "Mmmm, look at this lovely steak! Doesn't it look delicious? WHY wouldn't you want to eat this? GO ON, TRY A BIT, WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU?".

There is a nuance. And you dismissing people's feelings/experiences as "this kind of existential angst" shows that you can't see that.

Things will get easier as the kids grow older and they want their life back.

Yup, but you'll find that the childfree people have found other friends by then.

I don't get any such comments, as one of the more belatedly child free in my friend group, and we are planning to have children. I get silly comments from older family members, but none from friends.

Friends mostly comment that they are envious of my child free living, lie ins and travel. If anything, they feel their lives are lesser, because early childhood parenting doesn't exactly give much room for hobbies/realisation of the self, does it?

Obsessions with their pets
Women who seem to become the child. I’m not sure if this is because they choose this role or if their partner just wants to care for them.

I have other friends without children who are incredibly strong and independent, but a large proportion are quite precious and needy.

I don’t look down on them, no. But I do feel sorry for them and believe they’re only happy because they don’t know what they’re missing.

Which of course they’ll deny… because they don’t know what they’re missing.

Exhausted "I've known a few woman in their 50s/60s/70s who are childless and they all have a unique selfishness, despite being very lovely people"

I heard a lot of this in my 30s. I don't hear it now but I'd probably just laugh and look smug. I used to think it was a terrible criticism though.

how does this "unique selfishness" manifest, and how do you think it differs from ordinary selfishness?

I suspect those that do make comment or judge are insecure in their life choices and project to make themselves feel better. As a woman you are judged regardless (although it is more savage for some I'm not minimising that). I have one child and the constant omg how cruel when are you having another replaced when are you having kids then, as if it's something we must all do. My heart breaks for those who have these decisions taken out of their hands, but when it comes to choice- huge believer that whatever is right for you is a valid choice, and your worth as a person is not connected to whether you have a child, are in a relationship or whatever else.

I find that weird. I don't need to become a farmer to know it's not for me.

I’m not childfree but I think obsession with pets or in pp unique selfishness is a bit bonkers. People have interests, and if it’s pets or a hobby that’s fine isn’t it?

I have to say I've never felt this vibe about single people not being 'suitable' or 'safe' for dinner parties/theatre etc. I'm not single, but a fair few of my friends are (or have been) and our dinners, trips out etc have always just been about us all going out as a group.
Surely the idea of inviting only couples for dinner or a single person being an 'extra' or 'spare part' is out of date now?

Everyone is different though, for many people it would genuinely and truly ruin their lives to have children and that's okay. There are many ways to have a fulfilling, happy and content life- and many don't involve children or being in a relationship.

Equally I’ve known a few women with the children who are more needy and dependent on their husbands than they should be.

Couples with kids can act like this though. I work with a woman with kids who calls her dog her baby. I find it cringey. Treating your partner like a kid? Dunno, new one on me and not sure that’s specific to not having kids is it.

As someone who seriously considered remaining childless, I certainly have no issue with people who are.

however, I think all the posts on here saying, "no of course not, why would I" are a bit disingenuous. There is no doubt that at a societal level, childfree people, women in particular, do tend to have to answer a lot of questions and have judgements made on them. Certainly, when I was musing about whether I really wanted children, you'd think I'd suggested that perhaps I'd turn to devil worship the way some people responded.

I've also overheard the silly, thoughtless comments made to or about childfree people like, "ooh, but she doesn't really understand what tiredness/love/self sacrifice is" which I have a slightly aggressive habit of jumping on, somewhat to the surprise of the person saying it.

And often, childfree people seem to feel the need to preface every comment as if to justify/acknowledge they're not a parent. I had a chat with a childfree colleague today and we were just talking about the craziness of year end and looking forward to the break and she said something like, "I feel completely exhausted and like I can't do any more thinking or creative work but it can't be anything like what you're feeling with children too". Made me sad for her.

"And yes, that old trope, but there's absolutely no love which comes even close to the love you have for your child."

I am not convinced this is always true. Some parents act as if they really love their kids always. Others really do not and are pretty uninterested in their adult kids.

I see women whose children are grown up acting like this with pets.

If an adult acts childlike and needs a partner to care for them that is probably why they chose not to have children. One of my grandmothers was like this and she was not a good mother. It was as a result of trauma and mental illness.

Loads of these "uniquely selfish" women end up being carers for elderly parents.

This is weird....dont you understand that there's more than one way of being happy/fulfilled?

How would you take it if people said something like "poor yellowtreehouse...she's never had a real career/lived in another country/done proper charity work (insert whatever here)....I imagine she's happy enough but that's only because she's never known what it is to be proud of a significant achievement/made a real difference to someone else's life/ selflessly helped others and genuinely made the world better, etc....

Yeah I agree, it’s more likely mental health/personality than a direct result of not having kids. Ive had plenty of colleagues and friends that sound reliant on family or partner and they have kids, that’s just upbringing/mental health/personality.

Gerbils "Made me sad for her."

I hear her comment as "thank goodness I don't have kids to add to the burden".

Has anyone started bingo yet, 3 down.

That's me. But lots of people with kids end up doing this too.

OP YABU as this should have been an evening thread. Then we could have played a drinking game. Doing it with a cup of tea is not as much fun.

I know this is deliberately goady but you could say that about anything, inlcluding the joys of a lifetime childfree. (I do have kids, before you say it.)