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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To be glad that the Down Syndrome abortion appeal was defeated

904 replies

Fififafa · 25/11/2022 12:30

A woman with DS has twice tried and failed to get the courts to outlaw abortion beyond 24 weeks for foetuses with DS. Under current legislation for England, Wales and Scotland, there is a 24-week time limit for abortion, unless "there is a substantial risk that if the child were born it would suffer from such physical or mental abnormalities as to be seriously handicapped", which includes Down's syndrome.
I read that she has is being supported by some religious group.

I’m glad that the appeal was lost. This is a personal decision that every woman has the choice and the right to make. What Heidi Crowter et al are doing, is fighting to remove that choice from women. AIBU?

OP posts:
BloodAndFire · 27/11/2022 19:18

Miss03852 · 27/11/2022 19:15

“Going to court” oh you mean risk 20+ years in prison? Very easy for you sat behind a keyboard. It’s the Laws that are the problem.

The laws are a problem, yes.

The doctors who decided they would rather let a woman die an agonising, certain death, rather than face the prospect of explaining why they did it in court, are also a problem.

Miss03852 · 27/11/2022 19:25

In the USA right now in Red States doctors are refusing to perform abortions for women even when the foetus isn’t viable and the life of the mother will be at risk, so those women are having to spend thousands of dollars flying to Blue States to get an abortion. That is absolutely not the Doctors fault and as much as you want to martyr yourself and act like you would perform an abortion in those circumstances and risk 20 years in prison for murder it’s easy for you to say that because you aren’t in that position. The risk of life to mother can be hard to prove and these psychotic archaic Laws are the problem.

BloodAndFire · 27/11/2022 19:59

Miss03852 · 27/11/2022 19:25

In the USA right now in Red States doctors are refusing to perform abortions for women even when the foetus isn’t viable and the life of the mother will be at risk, so those women are having to spend thousands of dollars flying to Blue States to get an abortion. That is absolutely not the Doctors fault and as much as you want to martyr yourself and act like you would perform an abortion in those circumstances and risk 20 years in prison for murder it’s easy for you to say that because you aren’t in that position. The risk of life to mother can be hard to prove and these psychotic archaic Laws are the problem.

Yes, it is easy for me to say it in my position.

I also don't accept that the HCPs are blameless in this situation. They knew they could intervene and save her life. They didn't. They let her die slowly and painfully while she and her husband begged them to help.

It is not 'absolutely not the doctors' fault'. When did someone in Ireland last spend 20 years in prison due to performing an abortion to save a woman's life? How did that go in court?

BloodAndFire · 27/11/2022 20:05

The doctors were found to be at fault in multiple ways:

The Health Service Executive (HSE) and Health Information and Quality Authority (HIQA) conducted an investigation. Both criticized the team for not diagnosing the sepsis soon enough and for not using already-standard screening tools for detecting and managing maternal sepsis, and for poor keeping of medical records, poor communication at shift changes, and failure to notify staff with needed expertise, and criticized the administration of the hospital for the poor system in which the team failed. They made recommendations about training and policies for the hospital locally along with a number of national recommendations, including the creation of a laboratory system to coordinate a national response to emerging microbial threats.The HSE also recommended changes to the legal situation and training of doctors about the law.

The law in force at the time stated that the act of abortion, where there was no immediate physiological threat to the woman's life to continue the pregnancy, was a criminal offence punishable by life imprisonment. Following a ruling of the Supreme Court of Ireland in 1992 – now known in Ireland as the X case – terminations are allowed under certain circumstances, where "a pregnant woman's life is at risk because of pregnancy, including the risk of suicide".[14] However at the time of Halappanavar's death, there was legal uncertainty regarding the precise circumstances in which this exception to preserve the life of the mother would apply in practice, as the matter had not yet been enacted in legislation.

the jury returned a verdict of medical misadventure.

The doctors and nurses were poorly trained. They did not communicate properly.

Earlier, the consultant obstetrician who treated Mrs Halappanavar has told the inquest there was a "systems failure" in the care that was given to her.
Dr Katherine Astbury said Mrs Halappanavar's clinical signs were not checked every four hours after her membranes ruptured, which was a breach of hospital policy.
She told the inquest that when Mrs Halappanavar requested a termination from her on the morning of 23 October, she outlined the legal position to her.
She said that Mrs Halappanavar had told her she was finding it very upsetting and difficult given that the ultimate outcome would be that her baby would not survive.
Dr Astbury told her "in this country it is not legal to terminate a pregnancy on the grounds of poor prognosis for a foetus".
She said it was her view that Mrs Halappanavar was emotionally disturbed, but not physically unwell.
She told Mr Halappanavar's barrister, Eugene Gleeson, that she felt at the time the prospect of viability for the foetus was poor as opposed to being non-existent.
The phrase "inevitable miscarriage" had been recorded in medical notes by a colleague of Dr Astbury on 22 October.
Dr Astbury told Mr Gleeson that "the law in Ireland does not permit termination even if there is no prospect of viability".
She said this was her understanding based on the X Case judgment and Medical Council guidelines.
Dr Astbury told Mr Gleeson it did not occur to her to consult her colleagues about the legal position.

The doctor was not in a terrible position of thinking she would be imprisoned for 20 years. Rather 'it did not occur to her to ask'.

And the midwife:

The midwife manager on St Monica's Ward at Galway University Hospital has confirmed that she told Savita Halappanavar that a termination could not be carried out because Ireland was a "Catholic country".

The malpractice here was not a case of good doctors and nurses hamstrung by terrible laws, but religious bigotry, probably with a good dose of racism, and shitty medical practice.

BloodAndFire · 27/11/2022 20:07

And all of the key causal factors were incompetence and lack of care on the part of the medical team:
Key Causal Factor 1:
Inadequate assessment and monitoring that would have enabled the clinical team to recognise and respond to the signs that the patient’s condition was deteriorating due to infection associated with a failure to devise and follow a plan of care for this patient that was satisfactorily cognisant of the facts that:
→ the most likely cause of the patient’s inevitable miscarriage was infection and
→ the risk of infection and sepsis increased with time following admission and especially following the spontaneous rupture of the patient’s membranes.
Key Causal Factor 2:
Failure to offer all management options to a patient experiencing inevitable miscarriage of an early second trimester pregnancy where the risk to the mother increased with time from the time that membranes were ruptured.
Key Causal Factor 3:
Non adherence to clinical guidelines related to the prompt and effective management of sepsis, severe sepsis and septic shock when it was diagnosed.

www.hse.ie/eng/services/news/nimtreport50278.pdf

LexMitior · 27/11/2022 20:19

It is really disengenuous to suggest that Christianity does not drive anti abortion laws. The law in Ireland was not secular, weighing the sin of abortion versus suicide or death.

The same in the United States. The same with this group of evangelical Christians who sponsored this case. Control of women is just something that keeps involving Christianity and abortion

BloodAndFire · 27/11/2022 20:28

LexMitior · 27/11/2022 20:19

It is really disengenuous to suggest that Christianity does not drive anti abortion laws. The law in Ireland was not secular, weighing the sin of abortion versus suicide or death.

The same in the United States. The same with this group of evangelical Christians who sponsored this case. Control of women is just something that keeps involving Christianity and abortion

It is really disengenuous to suggest that Christianity does not drive anti abortion laws.

who has done that? I really hope it's not my posts that you're misrepresenting here?

It could not be more obvious that the entire anti-abortion movement is a Christian lobby.

I was separately pointing out that in Savita's case, the doctors and nurses were also seriously negligent and they were not torn between providing the best care and risking prison. They gave her really shit, substandard care, probably partially driven by racism, and not helped by Ireland's stupid, evil laws against abortion.

Itsbritneybitch22 · 27/11/2022 21:00

Yea I’m glad.

I also think that it was cruel for the people around her that encouraged her to do this and keep fighting for it, she ( obviously ) has taken it so personally, when it’s nothing to do with her and her situation.
Yes she has this condition but she has absolutely no idea what it’s like to be a pregnant woman that has been told this at 20 wks + or does she have any idea what life is like for the family around her to raise a child with Down syndrome, all women should have a choice about their life, their bodies and their choice to bring a child with a special need into this world.

I can’t imagine the anxiety I would feel knowing I would have to leave one of those precious people in this cruel world one day when I died one day, God knows we can’t even trust the ‘care’ system in this world to take good care of them when we’re here and alive let alone if they’re left with nobody.

I do think that you to birth is extreme I can’t imagine there’s any women that go up till 40 weeks then change their minds and terminate.

iloveeverykindofcat · 28/11/2022 05:27

I think a lot of people on this thread are over-reaching what law is should be (or can be). I said upthread that we can't legislate for 'optimally ethical behaviour'- and we shouldn't try. That goes for religious systems as much as any other. To a large degree, law has to reflect majority consensus, because most people keep most laws because they broadly agree with them. Otherwise they become unenforcable, and the legal system becomes a joke. Which really is a good argument for keeping legislation out of abortion altogether.

Emotionalsupportviper · 28/11/2022 08:07

I can’t imagine the anxiety I would feel knowing I would have to leave one of those precious people in this cruel world one day when I died one day, God knows we can’t even trust the ‘care’ system in this world to take good care of them when we’re here and alive let alone if they’re left with nobody.

I'm sure that this is what influences a lot of parents - especially mothers.

My DD is autistic, and finds negotiating the world a very difficult place sometimes. She is highly intelligent, very capable in many ways, but left confused, often very hurt and sometimes humiliated by other people's behaviour because she takes everything so very literally, and can't read tone/ mood etc very well.

As I say i worry how she will manage, and yet compared to the vast majority of disabilities, this is mild.

I would certainly worry about a DS child.

Endwalker · 29/11/2022 17:55

Rees-Mogg speaking yesterday about abortion, referring to it as a "cult of death" and that it is morally wrong, news article and video recording in the links.

The government is planning a potential "bill of rights" for the UK and there is a petition currently for the right to abortion to be included. His comments were made in relation to this and he is opposed to access to safe abortions being enshrined as a right.

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/rees-mogg-abortion-death-cult-b2235286.html?amp

vm.tiktok.com/ZMFQGSeea/

Blossomtoes · 29/11/2022 17:58

When Rees Mogg is able to get pregnant he gets a say. How fortunate that he has so little political credibility.

Emotionalsupportviper · 29/11/2022 17:59

Endwalker · 29/11/2022 17:55

Rees-Mogg speaking yesterday about abortion, referring to it as a "cult of death" and that it is morally wrong, news article and video recording in the links.

The government is planning a potential "bill of rights" for the UK and there is a petition currently for the right to abortion to be included. His comments were made in relation to this and he is opposed to access to safe abortions being enshrined as a right.

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/rees-mogg-abortion-death-cult-b2235286.html?amp

vm.tiktok.com/ZMFQGSeea/

Coming from a man who makes a lot of money from the morning-after pill, that's a bit rich!

Endwalker · 29/11/2022 18:01

Isn't it just! He's the worst kind of hypocrite.

TimBoothseyes · 29/11/2022 18:04

Ree-Mogg is a cunt.

pointythings · 29/11/2022 18:18

@TimBoothseyes he really isn't. Cunts have warmth, depth and serve a useful purpose.

Emotionalsupportviper · 29/11/2022 18:20

pointythings · 29/11/2022 18:18

@TimBoothseyes he really isn't. Cunts have warmth, depth and serve a useful purpose.

😂😂😂

WhatarethePolicedoingaboutApricotCity · 29/11/2022 18:30

Rees-Mogg is the worst sort of cunt there is. As a practising Catholic, he is very much a pro-lifer, as one would expect.

He has six children (how anyone could be that intimate with a human pencil is beyond me). Then again, he's not living on UC on some sink estate, is he?

toffeecrisps · 29/11/2022 18:41

How Walter the Softy keeps getting elected is beyond me. If he ever becomes PM I'm emigrating.

DonnaBanana · 29/11/2022 19:07

YANBU but I believe strongly in pro choice which means any time, not just up to some arbitrary limit.

Emotionalsupportviper · 29/11/2022 19:18

toffeecrisps · 29/11/2022 18:41

How Walter the Softy keeps getting elected is beyond me. If he ever becomes PM I'm emigrating.

I doubt he'll get re-elected. According to Twitter even his staunchest defenders are deserting him in droves in his constituency.

Blossomtoes · 29/11/2022 19:24

Emotionalsupportviper · 29/11/2022 19:18

I doubt he'll get re-elected. According to Twitter even his staunchest defenders are deserting him in droves in his constituency.

Another moment to stay up for on election night.

TooBigForMyBoots · 29/11/2022 20:01

Jacob Rees Mogg is a human troll who made a massive contribution to the destruction of the UK and the Conservative Party.

Eton did a great job there.👏👏👏👏

Rudolphscarrot · 29/11/2022 20:22

I haven't RTFT so I apologise if this has been covered to death but it makes me so angry that these organisations are allowed to do this.

You see it time and time again. Vulnerable people going to court trying to get the law changed on abortion, euthanasia, trying to save children who with the best will in the world can't be saved. And the same organisations/lawyers are behind all of them. It gets dragged through all the courts up to the Supreme Court and they never win. Why? Because it's not the role of the courts to create laws! That's not how our legal system works. Lobby your MP if that's what you want. Don't build up the hopes of vulnerable people and put them through a long drawn out process that is virtually guaranteed to fail is just awful. It shouldn't be allowed.

WimpoleHat · 29/11/2022 20:41

What I don’t understand about Rees Mogg and the like is that they fervently believe that the government should butt out of people’s economic lives and decisions…..while at the same time, wanting to legislate to control people’s personal decisions. It’s counter intuitive. Their politics aren’t mine, but I can accept a properly libertarian viewpoint for what it is. But this quasi religious theocratic but (large C) Conservative twaddle? Totally incoherent to my mind.

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