To be glad that the Down Syndrome abortion appeal was defeated

[Fififafa]

A woman with DS has twice tried and failed to get the courts to outlaw abortion beyond 24 weeks for foetuses with DS. Under current legislation for England, Wales and Scotland, there is a 24-week time limit for abortion, unless "there is a substantial risk that if the child were born it would suffer from such physical or mental abnormalities as to be seriously handicapped", which includes Down's syndrome.
I read that she has is being supported by some religious group.

I’m glad that the appeal was lost. This is a personal decision that every woman has the choice and the right to make. What Heidi Crowter et al are doing, is fighting to remove that choice from women. AIBU?

Does anyone know what has happened to Heidi's appeal? Still pending?

@pointythings yes I completely agree with you

@whumpthereitis I can see where you’re coming from, but I don’t think in general we’re suffering from a surplus of positive takes on disability. Most people, when they talk about their children, think they’re brilliant. I don’t feel obliged with my typical child to say I think they’re wonderful but also to always caveat that they have tantrums etc. I’m not balanced, I’m their mum.

Most of the advocacy groups I can think of are also fierce campaigners around education, work training, etc. I’m not convinced they’re pretending negative experiences don’t exist. I agree that abortion rights can’t be collateral damage in this but equally disability rights can’t be collateral damage of fighting for abortion rights.

I think as a parent of a disabled child, your perceived ability of how you would cope is 100%. There's nothing ablist or disablist about knowing what you can and can't do based on the facts available to you. It should be a personal choice free from judgement and as simple as that. Do you want to? Do you not? Nothing else.

Exactly

What's worse, a woman (probably imaginary...) having access to safe healthcare or 5 children being born to a human incubator?

This is an interesting thread. I hadn't seen it before but it's close to my heart as quite a lot of years ago I had a baby with Downs. I had had the nuchal fold test which was low risk but I was the one in 3000 or whatever.

I placed my child for adoption. I just couldn't do it. It has had a profound impact on my life. I keep it a secret and other than close family and long term friends people don't know. I don't dare say as fear I will be judged.

I still see my child Infrequently (open adoption). I love those times but it confirms that I just couldn't do it. My child is so much better off with their adoptive parents than with me. That is a fact.

Oh bless you.

I worked with someone in a kind of similar situation. Truly heartbreaking for all involved 💔

You've been truly selfless with your decision, well done.

Thank you. You have no idea how much that means to be told I'm not hideous. Probably won't ever believe it but still, thanks.

You did nothing wrong, and are not in any way hideous.

Oh my goodness, you're in no way hideous!

❤️

@secreticanttell you did the best, most loving thing you could for your child in a very difficult situation. You accepted your limitations. Not hideous. A beautiful, selfless act.

How wonderful that you could have an open adoption and so know that she is so happy and loved! But how tragic that you feel like you did something awful despite knowing that it has worked out really well. Goodness no one should be judging unless they've walked in your shoes, you did what was best for both of you and that was brave and very difficult I'm sure.

@Skydaze I wonder - if you are not prepared to look after a child NO MATTER WHAT - whether you should be having children at all. What happens if your perfect, normal child suddenly is not perfect or normal anymore? Life itself is risk. Car crashes and other accidents, underlying heart conditions, mental health diagnoses, learning disabilities, neurodivergence, childhood cancers etc - a perfect healthy child is not a guarantee nor should it be the reason you conceive or continue a pregnancy. And I'm surprised by people who seem to think a normal fetus in-utero guarantees them a normal, easy, abled life for them and their child. Nothing could be further from the truth.

I actually completely agree with this. There are a myriad of disabilities that cannot be diagnosed in the womb. Additionally, my best friend (age 24 at the time) developed a brain tumour and needed surgery and radiation. As a result, she's been left disabled, which was never something that could have been foreseen when she was a child. She now needs round-the-clock carers and her mother has power of attorney over her finances. Disability can effect anyone, at any stage in life.

I am completely pro-choice, but I do think people have a very short-sighted view on disability unless they have directly experienced it themselves. My own sister is quite bigoted and prejudiced against those with disabilities (very pro-abortion for babies with known disabilities, lacking empathy or understanding for those with neurodivergences or mental health diagnosis) it seems to go completely over her head that any of her children or her husband or herself could become disabled at any point.

People aren’t short sighted - it is very unusual to become disabled via car accident or hidden heart conditions etc.

I am absolutely not willing to raise a child with a disability detectable in the womb. I would terminate.

Someone I know went on holiday and broke their neck in the pool ..

It happens and not always to someone else ....

I never thought it would happen to me and had a cvs to be sure but here I am 12 years later with a child with SN ..

Sometimes life is a little bit shit!

@SemperIdem 15% of the global population have a disability

And?

My point was the whataboutery around “people who become disabled after car accidents” is irrelevant to this particular conversation.

I’m sorry to read about your child’s accident @boboshmobo

You said “it is very unusual to become disabled via car accident or hidden heart conditions etc.”. Statistically, no it’s not.

It matters in the context of this conversation because there’s a lot of othering of disability here. Note the tendency to describe people’s disability in a way which highlights the difference between the disabled population and the non-disabled population. The reality is it’s something that can and does affect huge numbers of people and the one minority group we can find ourselves a member of at any moment.

I’m not saying that there’s anything wrong with you saying you would terminate, just fact checking the point before.

@SemperIdem I am absolutely not willing to raise a child with a disability detectable in the womb. I would terminate.

And, as I stated in my post, I am pro-choice.

The point of my post was that ANYONE can become disabled at any point, and I agree with the sentiment: I wonder - if you are not prepared to look after a child NO MATTER WHAT - whether you should be having children at all.

Just out of my pool of friends / family alone, we have: my aforementioned best friend, uncle who broke his neck in his 20s and has been unable to work since, aunt with mosaic downs which is/was not detectable in the womb at that time, aunt with ADHD, grandmother with depression who sadly committed suicide, my DC who is autistic and ADHD, stepdaughter who has ADHD, second stepdaughter who is dyslexic.

I'm sure there are more people I know, but these are just those off the top of my head. So yes, I do think it's short-sighted to think that disability will never directly effect your family. It's not as rare as people think, as quoted, 15% of the global population have a disability. Your baby not being diagnosed in the womb is no guarantee that they won't be born with a disability or become disabled later in life.

Of course people realise that. I don't think you're alone in knowing people with a variety of issues/life events.

The point of my post was that ANYONE can become disabled at any point, and I agree with the sentiment: I wonder - if you are not prepared to look after a child NO MATTER WHAT - whether you should be having children at all.

This is a really evil thing to say and encourage.

I have a living child with additional needs.

I couldn't bring another child into the world not only with additional needs but profoundly affected.

Aside from the emotional effect on my living child to witness the life and death of a sibling in his childhood. It would have affected every part of his life.

i find that comment really distasteful particularly given I would say every woman who has a TFMR after 24 weeks in particular and most before that legal cut off are devastated by the events that have unfolded.
you are - in my mind - attempting to frame this in some sort of ethical context and touching on the idea that those women only wanted a perfect baby. That’s outrageous.

so much unwarranted judgement on your part when it literally has fuck all to do with you or impact upon any aspect of your life.

I am just immensely grateful I have never had to go through this and prefer to leave my nose out of the decisions of others who have.

Your baby not being diagnosed in the womb is no guarantee that they won't be born with a disability or become disabled later in life.

and? The lack of ability to control everything does not mean that people shouldn’t have a choice in regards to those things they can.

So much this ^