To be glad that the Down Syndrome abortion appeal was defeated

[Fififafa]

A woman with DS has twice tried and failed to get the courts to outlaw abortion beyond 24 weeks for foetuses with DS. Under current legislation for England, Wales and Scotland, there is a 24-week time limit for abortion, unless "there is a substantial risk that if the child were born it would suffer from such physical or mental abnormalities as to be seriously handicapped", which includes Down's syndrome.
I read that she has is being supported by some religious group.

I’m glad that the appeal was lost. This is a personal decision that every woman has the choice and the right to make. What Heidi Crowter et al are doing, is fighting to remove that choice from women. AIBU?

@pinheadlarry I also have autism and I think you're talking complete nonsense.

And other peoples decisions are none of my business and wouldn't reflect on how I feel about myself in the slightest.

I’m pro choice BUT the screening programme makes my child with DS’s life more difficult. It means that huge assumptions are routinely made about their quality of life, capability, capacity, learning disability. It means health professionals have in the past quizzed me on why my child exists and on my antenatal choices (the diagnosis was made after birth). It perpetuates ableism. It means problematic language is used about DS all the time and the absolute worst possible scenarios are presented as likely outcomes - see examples in this thread.

I’m pro choice BUT I’d advocate a mature conversation about the topic in the round.

I’m pro choice BUT I think information about DS given during pregnancy is often really poor.

I’m pro choice BUT I think the current laws aren’t right - any pregnancy should be able to be terminated at any time.

I hope that doesn’t make me a moronic simpleton (ironically pretty offensive language originally used to describe people with a learning disability)

I’m pro choice BUT I think the current laws aren’t right - any pregnancy should be able to be terminated at any time.

@Demigo you are clearly not one of the morons I was referring to.

@Demigo

I don’t understand how another woman’s choice has any bearing on your child? Or perpetuates ableism? I don’t think a society that enables women to have bodily autonomy is at all at odds with a society that values and protects disabled people.

I had a termination as a teen as I didn’t feel capable of raising a child at such a young age. It doesn’t mean I disapprove of teenage mothers, or feel they’re incapable, or that their kids should have been terminated. It was the right decision for me.

Also I’m not sure why there’s alway an obsession on these threads with people with DS being doubly incontinent? Like, I’m sure it’s occasionally a thing (most things are occasionally a thing) but every child I know with DS uses the toilet, and most are out of nappies on a pretty normal timescale. Some continence specialists recommend early potty training for kids with DS because it makes constipation less likely.

You should be campaigning about better funding for disability services , respite etc not limiting abortion.

These weren’t legal in the US either. Gosnell is currently in prison for them. Philly has actually accessible clinics, it’s really unclear how he flew under the radar for so long.

This.

I work with disabled children, some have DS.

DS is a spectrum @Peedoffo? Really? Wow. Thanks for explaining that to me the mother of a child with Down's syndrome...

@pinheadlarry where in the world is euthanasia legal for autism?
Netherlands and I think Belgium

actual euthanasia? where they kill already born kids with autism? usually diagnosed at, what? age 3? 4?
They kill 3 or 4 year olds in Belgium?

I'm an LD/MH specialist , I've encountered lots of people throughout my career with DS. I have to do a baseline memory screen at the age of 30 because people with DS get Alzheimer's much earlier. One was early 40s with severe Alzheimer's needed to be sectioned as it was becoming increasingly difficult for her DM to manage as she was getting on herself. People with DS can be doubly incontinence yes.

I back better respite services for parents and more funding for disability services before any talks of restricting abortion. Perhaps if there was more support more parents would feel comfortable raising a disabled child.

@Brefugee don't worry, they don't. I think Larry is a bit eponymous.

@pinheadlarry where in the world is euthanasia legal for autism?

I'd like to know this, too.

I've never heard of such a thing.

Well there is. Birth.

Because it is an issue that many do have, I know a child born with DS who is amazing but due to his associated problems will never be able to be fully potty trained.

i don’t think we do any favours pretending everything is rosey and lovely because often being the parent of a disabled child is shit and discussing that is fine. Doesn’t mean the child isn’t loved and wanted but we don’t help anyone pretending that there aren’t issues with raising a child with any disabilities.

Changing a baby/ young child is also very different to a fully grown adult when you probably will need two of you to do it safely. I want better support for parents and families.

Changing a teenager who is doubly incontinent is hard enough. You don't get changing tables for teenagers in many places.

And this bill is not just for DS. It would have outlawed abortion for anyone over 24 weeks unless the mothers life was at risk.

I can only imagine. Ds is autistic and one of the things I am most grateful for in his case is the fact he is continent.

It's not murder, legally or otherwise. It is pure love that means we take on the pain and suffering so our precious children won't ever feel it.

@SnotRag22 that is a very profound and courageous comment.

You are right - it would be so much easier in so many ways if they law said either "Yes - you must terminate in X circumstances" or "No! You my never terminate in any circumstances."

Instead, the mother (quite rightly) is given all the information she needs and is (I hope) supported to come to the decision which is right for her at that time in her life: for her, her child, her family* - and I don't believe it would ever be an easy decision.

*Any other children in the family can be very adversely affected by a sibling with a disability.

I understand your viewpoint.

That doesn’t change the fact I would terminate a foetus with a DS diagnosis without hesitation.

The important factor is choice - so every woman can make the right choice for them and on that we agree.

Some of our friends have a daughter who has Downs. You know how they say that kids with Downs are always happy go lucky? Yeah... no. She is aggressive, has hardly any language and her sister resents her and their parents.
We had to stop letting our kids join us when we visited them because we didn't want our kids to get spat on or physically hurt.
Cue the mum: [Pearly laughter] "Oh yes, that's right I forgot to tell you that she has started spitting on people if she feels they are too close to her" [another pearly laugh]
It was their daughter who had moved close to my children while they were sitting on the floor, quietly playing with lego.

They don't see their other daughter much.

And a few days before birth? 🤢

I'm all for being respectful to peoples opinions. But force birthers scream at women going into abortion clinics, women have been accused of murdering babies just for accessing abortions - which after all is a medical treatment. If now isn't a time to get angry to defend our bodies from people trying to dictate to others, honestly I don't know when is?

I don't see Heidi as a manipulated person. She clearly has capacity (or the court would have not allowed the litigation to continue in the manner that it did or her lawyers wouldn't have been allowed to take instructions from her etc) To me she is simply someone who wants to restrict women's access to medical treatment and I think that is abhorrent. Just like I think everyone else is abhorrent for restricting the medical treatment of others.

And when does it stop. Shall we all have a say in what medical treatment everyone gets? Obviously Susan down the road doesn't get IVF cos if god wanted her to be a parent he would have given her a child. Clearly the Christian groups would be after natal testing next so shall we just do away with that now and save them the bother?

This is the thin end of the wedge - if we allow our rights to be chipped away at, they will go bigger and better.

Boak all you like, it's none of your business what other women legally choose to do with their uterus and their pregnancy (and even if it wasn't legal, it still wouldn't be your business).

Keep your own side of the street clean, as the saying goes.