To be glad that the Down Syndrome abortion appeal was defeated

[Fififafa]

A woman with DS has twice tried and failed to get the courts to outlaw abortion beyond 24 weeks for foetuses with DS. Under current legislation for England, Wales and Scotland, there is a 24-week time limit for abortion, unless "there is a substantial risk that if the child were born it would suffer from such physical or mental abnormalities as to be seriously handicapped", which includes Down's syndrome.
I read that she has is being supported by some religious group.

I’m glad that the appeal was lost. This is a personal decision that every woman has the choice and the right to make. What Heidi Crowter et al are doing, is fighting to remove that choice from women. AIBU?

That’s quite patronising. I have a child who has a disability which has a big stigma attached to it. Of course I’m fighting for better services.

I agree with you entirely about refusing to passively stand by and allow rights to be chipped away at.

However with regard to Heidi having capacity - she undoubtedly does for the litigation to have gone forward as it has. I don’t think her having capacity means she has any real depth of understanding. There are millions of non-disabled, neurotypical anti-choice people who are quite frankly just a bit thick and utterly lacking in any in depth understanding of the issue they feel so passionately about. They all have capacity.

This!! So many parents are not getting enough support with behaviours of concern in the community. Some sadly go on to be sectioned for years, whilst teams look for a suitable placement. I'm qualified and have a masters degree but I would severely struggle to choose to have a profoundly disabled child because the support systems simply aren't in place. NHS respite centres are being closed down !!

Well by getting the government to invest more in disability services would be good. Many women have had little exposure or education about learning disabilities. If there was more community support in place for families with disabled children, i fully believe more women would choose to continue a pregnancy. I would also like to see more profoundly disabled people in the media. I don't think we can judge a woman for choosing to terminate when the government do very little to help.

I’m going to be a bit controversial and say I don’t think that would be the case. I think even with brilliant support, few people would actively make a choice to have a disabled child. I wouldn’t. That’s why I’m suspicious of people who say ‘Oh I’m pro choice I just think it should be an informed choice’. Well, what’s to say women’s aren’t making an informed choice already, and their choice just doesn’t match up with what others may think? I don’t think there is any ‘right’ termination rate which reflects that women are definitely ‘making informed decisions’, if that makes sense.

@Tiredanddown I agree with you. If you look at Iceland and Sweden, there are very few people with DS born. When people have the option of not having a child with DS, they tend to take that option. And I don't blame them for a second. I would have done the same.

Life is getting harder for people with learning disabilities, even high functioning people. Life is far more complex. Paying bills online, internet banking, emails and whatsupp, call centres - it all makes life harder to deal with. It wasn't that long ago that people who struggled to understand bills could go to the gas showroom to pay their bill and ask questions so they could understand the bill. I do not think things are going to get any easier.

i wouldn’t want to watch my child suffer dementia in their 40s or 50s no matter how great the treatment was. I wouldn’t want to watch them suffer the indignity of double incontinence, no matter how great their carer. It would be too upsetting for me to actively choose that if it can be avoided. Women’s feelings matter, I feel like there’s an undertone of ‘you just don’t want to take on the stress’ but why should they? Why can’t we all want to make life as comfortable and stress free as we can? Not that a termination is stress free, but you know what I mean.

Just fact checking slightly - 153 babies with DS were born in Sweden last year, which is 1 in 745 live births. In the UK it’s about 1 in 700.

Iceland is always held up as somewhere where DS is nearly eradicated but it has a tiny birth rate - around 4500 babies a year so you’d only normally expect maybe 5 or 6 babies to be born with Down syndrome anyway. It doesn’t take much for a year where more women terminate and suddenly it’s been “eradicated”

This is definitely true and I get angry with this. Many people with learning disabilities get a set amount in cash every week. It's like the dark ages !!! They don't even have a debit card ! I've told them it's an archaic system but it's everywhere and no changes seem to be happening. Luckily the younger people with even profound LD can use a tablet , YouTube etc. Life is moving forward and people with LDs are sadly getting left behind. I've sat and taught people with LD how to operate a phone how to order things on the net it just takes a bit longer..

As would I. I would 100% terminate a DS pregnancy. It's nothing to do with other people.
Heidi was on sky saying how they can say her views don't matter, its actually simple. They really don't matter. She can hate the law all she wants, but its irrelevant. Her feelings are irrelevant.

Seeing a mother attempt to comfort her terrified daughter who had dementia in her 40s was one of the most heartbreaking things I've ever seen. It's not the natural order of things.

I bet it was devastating. I want my children’s lives to be as healthy, full and stress free as they possibly can be, and I will do everything in my power for that to happen - for them, but also for me, if that makes sense.

@SemperIdem I appreciate what you are saying, but should we fall into the trap of infantilizing Heidi? I don't know....

My cousin's first child had DS. She knew in advance. He was wanted and loved. He was a brilliant kid with the best life she could give him. He died when he was 9.

She would terminate a pregnancy for DS because she can't face that pain again. She should not be forced to.

@Crazycatlady83 that wasn’t my intention at all - I think Heidi has the same level of understanding of the issue as many NT people do. My point was they don’t understand the issue beyond a superficial level but their capacity isn’t questioned

For many parents, particularly older parents, the worry about who will care for a disabled child who outlives them is huge. There is little support for parents, which is bad enough - institutions can offer very little individual attention.

Yes, YABU
As the law stands currently, unborn babies can be aborted up to birth on the grounds of disability or suspected disability
Overt discrimination

So would I. What other posters who know lovely people with DS think is irrelevant. I know lovely people with DS but there is a hell of a lot of care needed. And it is always the woman who gives it.

Women before foetuses. Always.

Nope. Giving women the choice whether or not they want to take on the responsibility of caring for a child who may never be able to live independently, in a world where there is fuck all support for families with disabled children.

It is always, always, always, always the woman's choice. Want to end discrimination? Great. Abortion to term available for all. Sorted.

Close to birth abortion only happens with babies that are dying in the womb and will kill the mother.

You cannot force women to give birth to children who are disabled if they don't want to. The choice must always be theirs. A foetuses rights must never come before a woman's.

@CoastalWave

*24 weeks is more than enough bloody time to realise you don't want a baby imo.

Think its disgraceful you can abort at all past 16 weeks but there you go*

Oh for goodness sake a ridiculous comment and you’d do well to educate yourself.
an acquaintance recently had a scan at 21 weeks which suggested deformed kidneys and no bladder. There then was a consultant meetings over the next 2-3 weeks were they advised her that the infant would not form lungs properly. Then she wanted a second private opinion. By the time of the abortion decision was finally made it was 27 weeks . The decision was not taken lightly and the mum had to be armed with all the facts. Maybe count yourself lucky you’ve never been faced with that kind of decision

Scandinavia has ample provisions for children with DS but most mothers still choose to terminate. It’s not about government provision, it’s just that most women do not want to knowingly raise a child with these difficulties. I know I wouldn’t, no matter what kind of help I had.

So decriminalize abortion totally. Make it equal. Funnily enough, that’s not the type of equality these campaigners seem to be after.

Also pleased this was defeated. It should be up to women to decide what is best for them and their families. Heidi and her mother need to mind their own fucking business.