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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To be glad that the Down Syndrome abortion appeal was defeated

904 replies

Fififafa · 25/11/2022 12:30

A woman with DS has twice tried and failed to get the courts to outlaw abortion beyond 24 weeks for foetuses with DS. Under current legislation for England, Wales and Scotland, there is a 24-week time limit for abortion, unless "there is a substantial risk that if the child were born it would suffer from such physical or mental abnormalities as to be seriously handicapped", which includes Down's syndrome.
I read that she has is being supported by some religious group.

I’m glad that the appeal was lost. This is a personal decision that every woman has the choice and the right to make. What Heidi Crowter et al are doing, is fighting to remove that choice from women. AIBU?

OP posts:
TimBoothseyes · 25/11/2022 17:46

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

I didn't "murder" my son, I did the only thing I could do, as his mother, and that was to not let him suffer an agonising death.

Spookypig · 25/11/2022 17:49

CoastalWave · 25/11/2022 12:33

24 weeks is more than enough bloody time to realise you don't want a baby imo.

Think its disgraceful you can abort at all past 16 weeks but there you go.

Same

KezzM · 25/11/2022 17:51

SnotRag22 · 25/11/2022 14:32

I have posted this on another thread previously, but thought I would also put it here. I have had two TFMRs, or as they're more often known in the community, compassionate induction.

It wouldn't, and doesn't happen that term babies are aborted, just because. Ever.
Babies who have DS, when their mothers choose TFMR are, overwhelmingly, born shortly after the dating scan. Anomalies that necessitate a late TFMR often can't, or aren't picked up until the anatomy scan, which can be anywhere from 18-21w.

When a mother chooses compassionate induction for a late term baby, it's because that baby will suffer and then die. And the mother cannot bear to watch her darling baby fade away in pain.

Once you have been through the anatomy scan. Then there's a very detailed and lengthy follow up scan in fetal medicine, and then often another "making absolutely sure scan". You are referred to a specialist medical team who discuss your baby's diagnosis with you. There is often a bereavement MW present. You are given the full picture. Sometimes tests need to be done another few weeks down the line, so you wait, and hope, and pray. And google, and find articles and websites. Any knowledge or facts that you can. And you hope.

If the worst happens, and your baby continues to deteriorate, or their prognosis/diagnosis becomes even poorer, then you have to choose. It's not a real choice. You spend the time between appointments desperately hoping that their heart will stop on its own so you don't have to choose. It's already your fault that they're poorly, now you have to make this choice for them. The hell of it is something I can't accurately describe.

You have to give birth regardless. And you pack a bag for a child that will never come home, and go to hospital knowing that you will leave with empty arms. You take a fluffy blanket to wrap them in, a book to read them "guess how much I love you". Maybe the baby bubble bath you'd already bought and put in the cupboard with a packet of newborn stashed nappies that you picked up after your 12w scan. "Getting prepared" you thought to yourself at the time.

I was encouraged to have a D&E under general anaesthesia with my second TFMR but was made aware that they were generally only done up to 15/16w so I needed to think quickly as it becomes riskier for the mother. I didn't choose that method with either of mine.

You are told that they cannot feel pain yet, not before 26w, they're not sentient, their brains haven't developed those receptors. And you take that and hold it and hope that they only ever know warmth, love, and your heartbeat. That they've never known pain, fear, hunger and never will

Between then and 22w you give birth without having to consider the injection.

Post 22w then it is offered to have the injection. Not necessarily for all conditions, some babies will not survive the trauma of birth regardless of their gestation.

You have to sign things to say you understand that your baby won't be given medical assistance etc and you swallow a pill to begin your labour.

You give birth to your precious baby. One of mine lived for a short while after birth, what an immense blessing, you name them and begin memory making. Hand and footprints, reading them stories, sing to them, just being with them. You apologize "Mammy is so sorry, she's so sorry my baby, she loves you more than you can ever know". And you carry your cold, dead baby up to a mortuary, you kiss their head, weep and hand them to a nurse who will place them in a cold cot . You leave, amongst happy, excited new dads with car seats, waddling new mums who are smiling, content.

And you go home and you wail "Like a haunted, wounded animal" my DH described the noise that came out of me. And you weep. And you sleep. And you wake up and find that you're living your nightmare. Grief is exhausting. The weight of loss is draining. Your milk comes in, you experience the postpartum hormone drop "baby blues" without your baby.

Then you begin to plan their funeral and start a life which is different from the one before. You are forever changed. You are not the same person. And you can never be sure, if you share your story, that the person you're sharing the deepest, most traumatic experience of your life with won't react with disgust at you and never look at you again in the same way. You can never be guaranteed kindness in your loss and grief.

Nobody would choose this because the baby was the sex they didn't want or because they didn't fancy being pregnant any longer. Or because their baby wasn't "perfect" which gets trotted out on here .Nobody. You wanted to save them the pain, the suffering, the hurt.

It is unpalatable for people to imagine a fully formed baby being "killed", but you cannot imagine the horror of having to live it. These are not unwanted babies, they have been planned for, hoped for, prayed for. They are named and remembered and loved.

I am so so sorry for your losses

mumonherphone · 25/11/2022 17:53

WimpoleHat · 25/11/2022 12:33

I agree with you. Although I would argue the other way - that all abortion should be on demand as a fundamental right of women (so the Downs issue would then become irrelevant anyway in that context).

What if you're 9 months pregnant? I'm pro choice but surely there has to be a cut off point?

Problemorno · 25/11/2022 17:54

@SnotRag22 Your post made me tear up. I am so deeply sorry for your losses.

Endwalker · 25/11/2022 17:54

Spookypig · 25/11/2022 17:49

Same

So what do you propose happens for issues with the pregnancy that are picked up post-16wks?

For reference, the vast majority of abortions take place before 10wks so most women who simply don't want to be pregnant are taking care of the situation as early as possible. Only 1% of abortions take place by 20wks and most of those are due to problems with the pregnancy. The remaining 0.1% (274 last year) are done after 24wks and for very specific reasons.

RoomOfRequirement · 25/11/2022 17:55

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

My sympathy goes away for people who try to control women. IF - as a PP said, she has capacity to understand, then I won't discriminate based on disability.

If she doesn't, that's different.

I do love that MN deleted that post though. Will yours also be for the same insult, I wonder 🤷‍♀️🤷‍♀️

Endwalker · 25/11/2022 17:56

mumonherphone · 25/11/2022 17:53

What if you're 9 months pregnant? I'm pro choice but surely there has to be a cut off point?

There is a cut off point, it's 24wks except in very specific medical.circumstances.

Of the 274 post-24wk abortions carried out last year, they will have been carried out as soon as clinically possible following the decision being made.

Sirzy · 25/11/2022 18:06

mumonherphone · 25/11/2022 17:53

What if you're 9 months pregnant? I'm pro choice but surely there has to be a cut off point?

If someone is in the highly unlikely situation to be 9 months pregnant and need to terminate do you not think that would be a massive decision taken on a lot of medical advice?

as has been pointed out only 0.1% of terminations take place after 24 weeks and although there are no official statistics of rhem you can bet most are close to that 24 week mark

WimpoleHat · 25/11/2022 18:07

I'm pro choice but surely there has to be a cut off point?

I am against forced birth. Under all circumstances. I fundamentally believe that a woman’s right to bodily autonomy trumps any other claim. At any point.

ItsButters · 25/11/2022 18:12

pointythings · 25/11/2022 15:23

@iloveeverykindofcat Heidi's campaign has done just that for me. I trust women to take good decisions. I trust them not to abort at 38 weeks just for the lolz.

Exactly.

DrMarciaFieldstone · 25/11/2022 18:15

I'm pro choice but surely there has to be a cut off point?

Nope.

pointythings · 25/11/2022 18:15

Someone always trots out the 'but what if a woman wants to terminate at 9 months' card.

It doesn't happen.

There have been a tiny handful of cases of women asking for very late terminations of otherwise healthy pregnancies. None were permitted as, during assessment, it became clear that the women in question were suffering from very severe mental illness and at that point in time had no legal capacity to take that decision.

So we're back to trusting women to take good decisions - because no woman who is carrying a healthy pregnancy and is mentally well will decide to terminate on a whim. It says a lot about the people who posit the idea that they think there are women who would.

ItsButters · 25/11/2022 18:35

The number of moronic simpletons posting "I'm pro choice BUT...".

No. You're not pro choice.

MintyFreshOne · 25/11/2022 18:36

pointythings · 25/11/2022 18:15

Someone always trots out the 'but what if a woman wants to terminate at 9 months' card.

It doesn't happen.

There have been a tiny handful of cases of women asking for very late terminations of otherwise healthy pregnancies. None were permitted as, during assessment, it became clear that the women in question were suffering from very severe mental illness and at that point in time had no legal capacity to take that decision.

So we're back to trusting women to take good decisions - because no woman who is carrying a healthy pregnancy and is mentally well will decide to terminate on a whim. It says a lot about the people who posit the idea that they think there are women who would.

No. There need to be clear guidelines/cutoffs or abuses will happen. Most doctors would not perform abortions after viability (or slightly earlier) for healthy fetuses but there are those who will, and it can become very dodgy. I’m thinking of the Kermit Gosnell case in Philadelphia (a city where abortion access is not in question btw).

www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2013/04/why-dr-kermit-gosnells-trial-should-be-a-front-page-story/274944/

So don’t say it never happens, because it does. That’s why we have legal guidelines for this rare events.

There’s no reason to move the current cutoffs, just because some campaigners are whining about ‘unfairness’

Life isn’t fair!

Butitsnotfunnyisititsserious · 25/11/2022 18:44

DrMarciaFieldstone · 25/11/2022 18:15

I'm pro choice but surely there has to be a cut off point?

Nope.

No cut off point for me. I don't believe any woman should be forced to have a pregnancy she doesn't want. The woman's choice and right to autonomy is more important.

pinheadlarry · 25/11/2022 18:44

pointythings · 25/11/2022 16:53

@JessicaBrassica the effects and comorbidities of trisomy 21 (and others) are very well known, so that isn't a valid point. What you're taking a chance on is how severe the issues turn out to be, and it should be up to the mother to decide to take that on, or not.

@pinheadlarry where in the world is euthanasia legal for autism?

Netherlands and I think Belgium

pointythings · 25/11/2022 18:44

@MintyFreshOne healthcare in the US works very, very differently from healthcare in the UK. There is much less oversight. Any Kermit Gosnell style abortion performed in the UK would not be a legal one.

pointythings · 25/11/2022 18:46

@pinheadlarry nope. I'm Dutch so I know you are talking nonsense.

People with autism in the Netherlands can ask for euthanasia - but not on the grounds of autism, and they are subject to the same rules on capacity as anyone else. Are you saying that people with autism inherently lack the capacity to take that decision? Because that would indicate a profound lack of understanding of what autism is. I am also the parent of an autistic child - who would absolutely have the capacity to take that decision if the worst should happen and we were living in the Netherlands.

pinheadlarry · 25/11/2022 18:46

BloodAndFire · 25/11/2022 16:52

Perhaps, as several posters have suggested on the thread, the best thing to do is to make abortion legal up to full term for ALL pregnancies. Then there is no discrimination against disability (real or perceived) and all lives can be considered equal before the law.

The more time goes on, the more I think this may be the best option. Late-term abortions are already vanishingly rare with the current legislation - I very much doubt there would be many (if any) more if they just made it legal at any gestation for any woman .

I dont like the idea of a full term baby being murdered..

BernadetteRostankowskiWolowitz · 25/11/2022 18:47

Aborting a pregnancy is not murder.

pointythings · 25/11/2022 18:47

I dont like the idea of a full term baby being murdered..

Well, it's a good thing nobody is proposing that then, isn't it?

WindyHedges · 25/11/2022 18:48

I totally agree with you @Fififafa YANBU

But … I was quite shocked in a conversation with a Swedish colleague who told me that there were almost no people with Downs in Sweden.

I guess if you were an adult with Downs, and not hugely cognitively impaired, that would be disturbing. I found it disturbing.

At the same time as being fiercely pro-choice.

LexMitior · 25/11/2022 18:50

@pinheadlarry - did you conflate an adult's decision for euthanasia in a country where it is legal and must be taken by the person affected with an abortion? Why?

Peedoffo · 25/11/2022 18:52

hopeishere · 25/11/2022 17:28

I have a child with Down's syndrome and for us, at the minute, it's is an easy time. He has no health issues and is a delight.

There is SO much focus on DS. I have a much, much easier life than my friend who has children with ADHD. I'm sure once they decode that and many other diseases there will be a even more discussions on this issue.

You are lucky then Downs syndrome is a spectrum disorder. Some parents don't have problems until their child reaches the teenage years and the hormones start. They grow in strength and size , challenging behaviour becomes a lot more difficult to manage because of this. Some are doubly incontinent changing a large person alone is difficult. Home then breaks down so services have to step in. There's also the increased risk of Alzheimer's at a young age

It's a personal decision really for the parents to make