To be glad that the Down Syndrome abortion appeal was defeated

[Fififafa]

A woman with DS has twice tried and failed to get the courts to outlaw abortion beyond 24 weeks for foetuses with DS. Under current legislation for England, Wales and Scotland, there is a 24-week time limit for abortion, unless "there is a substantial risk that if the child were born it would suffer from such physical or mental abnormalities as to be seriously handicapped", which includes Down's syndrome.
I read that she has is being supported by some religious group.

I’m glad that the appeal was lost. This is a personal decision that every woman has the choice and the right to make. What Heidi Crowter et al are doing, is fighting to remove that choice from women. AIBU?

@SnotRag22 what a heartbreaking post 💐

Pregnancies are aborted, be it at embryonic or foetal stage. Nothing magical happens to grant a foetus rights. A pregnancy ends and a person is born with the rights of other people.

Pregnant women have rights.
Babies have rights.
Pregnancies don't have rights because pregnancy is a condition.

Thank you so much to everyone who has been so kind , it means a huge amount 💐

I'm sort of skim reading until later on now, so please don't think I don't appreciate everyone individually who has commented. I genuinely appreciate the kindness and love.

And I'm so sorry to my fellow TFMR Mum's. It is a club which nobody ever thinks they're going to be part of, or indeed, would want to be part of. Sending love and strength x

@SnotRag22 Thank you for sharing that deeply moving and personal story. I don't know what to say to that. I am very sorry for your losses.

@SnotRag22 I've nothing to say and offer except how utterly heartbreaking your story is and how sorry I am for anyone who has to go through it.

It's experiences like yours which prove how vital proper care and support is, not uncaring judgement and flippancy.

@Demigo

There’s, as ever, a lot of ableism on this thread that makes difficult reading. You can support women’s rights, disagree with Heidi, and also recognise that the vast majority of people with DS and their families have good quality lives. But it’d be easier with better access to support and less assumptions and ableism!

Thank you for articulating this. I've found reading this thread very difficult. Not because of my lack of feeling for women who are faced with the heartbreaking decision of whether to abort their disabled child or not. I feel sick when I try to put myself into their shoes. I cannot imagine the pain they face.

But deeply difficult because as a parent to two disabled children, I have genuine fear for the future of disabled people, as genetic testing becomes more advanced. Because my lived, everyday experience - and that of many many families I know personally- is that we are NOT completely "free" to choose what's best for our bodies, our children, our families. We are not free because we are constantly, unendingly bombarded with discrimination against disabled people. Disabled people are NOT given the same equal rights, respect and value as non-disabled.

I was at a school meeting last week where a headteacher said to a parent of a disabled child "I don't like talking to parents about lack of funding to support their children, but we've had to cut back on school trips for all the children so that we can afford TAs to have (disabled) children at school when we don't get enough funding for them."

The message of this is painfully clear to us as parents of disabled children - if only our expensive, bothersome disabled children didn't exist, the non-disabled children would still be able to go to art galleries. Whilst we are there fighting for the most basic access, ie to even be able to come to school.

So when I read this thread, I am not lacking in huge compassion for women facing this excruciating choice.

But I am saying - there is no "free" choice. My children's existence as disabled people costs money, and the message I hear over and over again from the non-disabled majority is that my children cost too much.

@SnotRag22 ❤️ 💐 sending you lots of love

It isn't just Down Syndrome though... this most recent appeal makes it sound like it is, but it isn't and it never has been. It is any pregnancy where the child would "suffer from such physical or mental abnormalities as to be seriously handicapped".

There are many many conditions that would potentially fit that criteria - can we stop making out that this is JUST about Down Syndrome, it really really isn't.

This. This a million times over. I seriously considered posting a photo of a baby with cyclopia or otocephaly or any one of dozens of conditions that mean the baby will have a very short or very limited life with lots of suffering.

The only reason I didn't is that I felt it too graphic for people who have been in the position of having to terminate a pregnancy like this.

But those of you calling it murder, please do Google these conditions and look at the images and suppressing the instinctive outrage at the subject of abortion, just ask yourself: would I let my baby be born like this? Even at 24 weeks, could I inflict this level of torture on my tiny precious baby? Sometimes abortion is a mercy, for the mother and the baby. I wouldn't want to be born like that.

It's not about Down syndrome. It's not about value of life. It's quality of life. For you and them.

@SnotRag22 I am so so sorry for what you have gone through
Your post made me cry
So heartbreaking

In our street are an elderly couple and their daughter with DS. She is late-40s, with severe learning disabilities and unable to live alone. She wakes several times a night (we often hear her in the summer when windows are open) and is occasionally violent to her parents. They moved here 2 years ago to be closer to their other children so that they can support them in looking after her.

DS can be very complex and carry numerous challenges. Every woman has the right to choose not to go through with a pregnancy if she doesn’t feel able to.

I think one difficulty here is that what logically looks right and what emotionally feels right are different. Logically it looks like either viability should be the line, or there should be no line, and abortion should be available to term for everyone. No discrimination for disability (unless that disability means the fetus is non-viable). But emotionally that feels wrong because it leads to more suffering.

But deeply difficult because as a parent to two disabled children, I have genuine fear for the future of disabled people, as genetic testing becomes more advanced.

Why though? All that will happen is that fewer disabled children will be born to people who cannot look after them. Nobody is coming for children that are already born.

Because my lived, everyday experience - and that of many many families I know personally- is that we are NOT completely "free" to choose what's best for our bodies, our children, our families. We are not free because we are constantly, unendingly bombarded with discrimination against disabled people. Disabled people are NOT given the same equal rights, respect and value as non-disabled.

This is an absolutely valid and important point. Further in your post the head at your DCs school told you they had cut trips for all children because your child sucks up resources. Well fuck that head because your child deserves and is entitled to those resources. And i hope they get what they need and deserve by right.

But imagine a world where more disabled children, not fewer, are born. All competeting for, let's face it, ever dwindling resources. Facing ableism and discrimination at every turn. Often with parents without resources to cope, possibly with resentful siblings whose own lives are upturned and possibly adversely affected by their families having to focus more time and resources on a child that didn't ask to be born with disabilities. And so on. You have disabled children so you know what it is like. And even if individual families and siblings are fine, so many aren't.

Laws allowing abortions are careful about what they allow, and people who decide against abortion should get all the support they need. But forcing people into this is abhorrent and not at all kind. And so women must be allowed this chioice as late as necessary.

You know what I think this crusade has actually pushed my thinking in the other direction. Maybe it should be available to term, for everyone. At least that's consistent.

@SnotRag22 I’m so sorry for what you have been through. Sending you and your family so much love.

I'd also like to add something to the baby/foetus discussion.

Of course we all use different words at different times. Those of us who have suffered miscarriage of a wanted baby (even an unwanted one) will think of that as the loss of a baby. But for those who don't want the baby, or who never intended to be pregnant in the first place don't have the same desire for a baby, and it is still legally a foetus anyway, so why not call it that.

And not forgetting some women have terminations or abortions even if they don't want to (not necessarily, but it does happen, coercion but other reasons) and they might well refer to having terminated a baby and think of it as murder.

And while "be kind" does get trotted out too much, and often as a way of silencing women, how about we are kind to each other and ourselves when these circumstances arise?

@iloveeverykindofcat Heidi's campaign has done just that for me. I trust women to take good decisions. I trust them not to abort at 38 weeks just for the lolz.

The right decision by the courts. Nobody is debating disabled people's rights to exist once they are here. It is vital though that women are able to have the choice about whether to bring one into the world in the first place. The Icelandic people have got it right with DS.

I'm the sibling of a person with Downs.

Your post is incorrect, Downs isn't a spectrum condition. The degree of learning disability, health needs etc can vary (as they do in people without Downs), but Downs is a chromosomal abnormality that you either have or you don't.

Also just to add, my sibling is not high functioning at all (they have a profound learning disability for example) but my experience is still overwhelmingly (though not entirely) positive. I do understand the point you're making, but I just want to point out that it is possible for profoundly disabled people to live rich, happy lives and for their families to have functional, loving, joyful relationships with them.

A devastating but vital read. Thanks for sharing.

@RodiganReed the level of learning disability aside (which as you have mentioned can be profound), DS also comes with physical comorbidities which can be extremely serious, and carries a massively increased risk of very early onset dementia. This is information people need - alongside awareness that they may be bringing up a child who may be non-verbal, aggressive, doubly incontinent and never able to live a normal life. People need the full picture of what they might face in order to make an informed choice.

And then they need to be allowed by law to make that informed choice.

Is that what you expect all women to do?

She has a right to an opinion like anyone else. And she believes that people like her deserve to exist.

Heidi Crowter is allowed her opinion. She is not allowed to impose its consequences on other women who do not share it. Simple.

I do apologise @RodiganReed I was under the impression that there was a 'spectrum of severity' with DS.

Yes, all women should make the choices they wish to make for themselves.

No woman should try to force any other woman to continue, or terminate, a pregnancy.

This should apply equally to everyone, yes.

Heidi is allowed her opinion but it is the opinion of someone with a profound learning disability who will not have the capacity to understand all the issues. The fact that she can only use her own emotional reactions as an argument shows this. It was unkind of her team to use her as a figurehead for this case.