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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To be glad that the Down Syndrome abortion appeal was defeated

904 replies

Fififafa · 25/11/2022 12:30

A woman with DS has twice tried and failed to get the courts to outlaw abortion beyond 24 weeks for foetuses with DS. Under current legislation for England, Wales and Scotland, there is a 24-week time limit for abortion, unless "there is a substantial risk that if the child were born it would suffer from such physical or mental abnormalities as to be seriously handicapped", which includes Down's syndrome.
I read that she has is being supported by some religious group.

I’m glad that the appeal was lost. This is a personal decision that every woman has the choice and the right to make. What Heidi Crowter et al are doing, is fighting to remove that choice from women. AIBU?

OP posts:
Snugglemonkey · 25/11/2022 14:37

OlympicProcrastinator · 25/11/2022 14:13

I don’t think people realise how difficult it is to actually get a late termination. I fell pregnant with a 4th baby just before I was 40. I was on the depo shot and had been for several months. In addition to this I had something called a subchronic heamatoma which causes substantial heavy bleeding that can last weeks or in my case, months.

For all the above reasons my doctor nor I even entertained the possibility of pregnancy. I was just past 21 weeks when I found out. I already had 3 children, was just about to start a new well paying career that would have supported my family. I couldn’t cope financially, emotionally or physically with another baby. But it turns out very few providers actually perform abortions so late and the ones that do have a waiting list which took me past the time limit.

I had a forced birth. It’s horrendous, barbaric and destroyed my life in so many ways despite the fact I love that child every bit as much as the other 3. And society as a whole pays as we can’t afford four children without some state help, especially as I wasn’t able to step into the career I had planned as a result.

If parents are expected to be responsible for their children after birth, then abortion should be provided as early as possible, as late as necessary for ANY reason. Nobody should be forced to look after a child they cannot provide for.

That is horrific. I am so sorry you had this experience x

MintJulia · 25/11/2022 14:38

Cuppasoupmonster · 25/11/2022 12:37

YANBU. How arrogant of people to want to restrict women’s heartbreaking choices because they feel indulgently ‘uncomfortable’ with them (but of course, wouldn’t have the responsibility of potentially bringing up a child with significant needs themselves). As early as possible, as late as necessary.

This. Always

BloodAndFire · 25/11/2022 14:38

SnotRag22 · 25/11/2022 14:32

I have posted this on another thread previously, but thought I would also put it here. I have had two TFMRs, or as they're more often known in the community, compassionate induction.

It wouldn't, and doesn't happen that term babies are aborted, just because. Ever.
Babies who have DS, when their mothers choose TFMR are, overwhelmingly, born shortly after the dating scan. Anomalies that necessitate a late TFMR often can't, or aren't picked up until the anatomy scan, which can be anywhere from 18-21w.

When a mother chooses compassionate induction for a late term baby, it's because that baby will suffer and then die. And the mother cannot bear to watch her darling baby fade away in pain.

Once you have been through the anatomy scan. Then there's a very detailed and lengthy follow up scan in fetal medicine, and then often another "making absolutely sure scan". You are referred to a specialist medical team who discuss your baby's diagnosis with you. There is often a bereavement MW present. You are given the full picture. Sometimes tests need to be done another few weeks down the line, so you wait, and hope, and pray. And google, and find articles and websites. Any knowledge or facts that you can. And you hope.

If the worst happens, and your baby continues to deteriorate, or their prognosis/diagnosis becomes even poorer, then you have to choose. It's not a real choice. You spend the time between appointments desperately hoping that their heart will stop on its own so you don't have to choose. It's already your fault that they're poorly, now you have to make this choice for them. The hell of it is something I can't accurately describe.

You have to give birth regardless. And you pack a bag for a child that will never come home, and go to hospital knowing that you will leave with empty arms. You take a fluffy blanket to wrap them in, a book to read them "guess how much I love you". Maybe the baby bubble bath you'd already bought and put in the cupboard with a packet of newborn stashed nappies that you picked up after your 12w scan. "Getting prepared" you thought to yourself at the time.

I was encouraged to have a D&E under general anaesthesia with my second TFMR but was made aware that they were generally only done up to 15/16w so I needed to think quickly as it becomes riskier for the mother. I didn't choose that method with either of mine.

You are told that they cannot feel pain yet, not before 26w, they're not sentient, their brains haven't developed those receptors. And you take that and hold it and hope that they only ever know warmth, love, and your heartbeat. That they've never known pain, fear, hunger and never will

Between then and 22w you give birth without having to consider the injection.

Post 22w then it is offered to have the injection. Not necessarily for all conditions, some babies will not survive the trauma of birth regardless of their gestation.

You have to sign things to say you understand that your baby won't be given medical assistance etc and you swallow a pill to begin your labour.

You give birth to your precious baby. One of mine lived for a short while after birth, what an immense blessing, you name them and begin memory making. Hand and footprints, reading them stories, sing to them, just being with them. You apologize "Mammy is so sorry, she's so sorry my baby, she loves you more than you can ever know". And you carry your cold, dead baby up to a mortuary, you kiss their head, weep and hand them to a nurse who will place them in a cold cot . You leave, amongst happy, excited new dads with car seats, waddling new mums who are smiling, content.

And you go home and you wail "Like a haunted, wounded animal" my DH described the noise that came out of me. And you weep. And you sleep. And you wake up and find that you're living your nightmare. Grief is exhausting. The weight of loss is draining. Your milk comes in, you experience the postpartum hormone drop "baby blues" without your baby.

Then you begin to plan their funeral and start a life which is different from the one before. You are forever changed. You are not the same person. And you can never be sure, if you share your story, that the person you're sharing the deepest, most traumatic experience of your life with won't react with disgust at you and never look at you again in the same way. You can never be guaranteed kindness in your loss and grief.

Nobody would choose this because the baby was the sex they didn't want or because they didn't fancy being pregnant any longer. Or because their baby wasn't "perfect" which gets trotted out on here .Nobody. You wanted to save them the pain, the suffering, the hurt.

It is unpalatable for people to imagine a fully formed baby being "killed", but you cannot imagine the horror of having to live it. These are not unwanted babies, they have been planned for, hoped for, prayed for. They are named and remembered and loved.

I'm so, so, so sorry. I have a heart of stone usually but I am actually crying after reading this post. I'm so sorry for what you've been through and so sorry for your babies.

pointythings · 25/11/2022 14:40

@SnotRag22 thank you for sharing your story. Every time you do, I hope some of the forced birthers will read it and see what it is they're actually doing. They probably won't, but if even one develops an ounce of compassion, it helps.

Flowers
StellaAndCrow · 25/11/2022 14:41

GloomyDarkness · 25/11/2022 13:32

this would probably end up with a lot more abortions as if women were not allowed to abort after 24 weeks, then some of them would terminate before having the full information

I was thinking this as well.

Yes, I wonder about that as well. If there was an absolute limit of 24 weeks, then women who can't get testing done in time may choose to abort as they won't have the opportunity later.

And the people in the limelight always seem to be the relatively high functioning people. I see so many families with very disabled children with very little quality of life, becoming very disabled adults, and there really isn't enough support either for the families or the individuals.

And some of the conditions are massively life-limiting - very short lives with much medical intervention and pain. The high profile campaigners are not speaking up for these individuals.

NadjaCravensworth · 25/11/2022 14:42

@SnotRag22 I have no words. I am so sorry for your loss and I cant even imagine how horrific this must have been.

GETTINGLIKEMYMOTHER · 25/11/2022 14:43

@SnotRag22 , I’m so sorry for what you went through with your precious baby. 💐💐

NadjaCravensworth · 25/11/2022 14:43

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

monsteramunch · 25/11/2022 14:43

@SnotRag22

Sending you so much love and I'm so sorry for the disgusting posts some posters have written Flowers

lieselotte · 25/11/2022 14:45

Cuppasoupmonster · 25/11/2022 12:37

YANBU. How arrogant of people to want to restrict women’s heartbreaking choices because they feel indulgently ‘uncomfortable’ with them (but of course, wouldn’t have the responsibility of potentially bringing up a child with significant needs themselves). As early as possible, as late as necessary.

Completely agree.

Samcro · 25/11/2022 14:46

I wish it was up to birth for all . would stop the whole issue.
People are so scared of DS, yet no one ever wonders about CP that is mainly caused by midwives/doctors at birth.
also I do wish people would stop using siblings as an excuse for not wanting a child with DS. disability can happen at any time, did in my family. it hasn't ruined the siblings life.

ArrowNorth · 25/11/2022 14:46

@notinagreatplace

The decision was so hard that I almost walked out in front of a truck outside the hospital rather than go inside and make it.

I'm so very sorry you went through this. There really are no words.

lieselotte · 25/11/2022 14:48

@SnotRag22 I read your post on the other thread and just wanted to add my condolences. I totally agree with you that nobody would choose it.

Flowers
CountZacular · 25/11/2022 14:48

@SnotRag22

I'm so sorry. That genuinely brought a tear to my eye. 🌺

lieselotte · 25/11/2022 14:49

Really struggling to see why another needs the full 9 months in any circumstance

I don't think there's been a full term abortion in the UK for years.

ChiefWiggumsBoy · 25/11/2022 14:50

@CoastalWave

6 months is plenty in 99.9999% of cases

Well, only 0.1% of abortions actually take place at 24 weeks or more gestation. So are you ok with it, or not?

As for me - as early as possible, as late as necessary.

TimBoothseyes · 25/11/2022 14:51

@SnotRag22 You have encapsulated exactly the feelings I felt. I send you a very unMN hug and my deepest sympathies.

Snugglemonkey · 25/11/2022 14:51

SnotRag22 · 25/11/2022 14:32

I have posted this on another thread previously, but thought I would also put it here. I have had two TFMRs, or as they're more often known in the community, compassionate induction.

It wouldn't, and doesn't happen that term babies are aborted, just because. Ever.
Babies who have DS, when their mothers choose TFMR are, overwhelmingly, born shortly after the dating scan. Anomalies that necessitate a late TFMR often can't, or aren't picked up until the anatomy scan, which can be anywhere from 18-21w.

When a mother chooses compassionate induction for a late term baby, it's because that baby will suffer and then die. And the mother cannot bear to watch her darling baby fade away in pain.

Once you have been through the anatomy scan. Then there's a very detailed and lengthy follow up scan in fetal medicine, and then often another "making absolutely sure scan". You are referred to a specialist medical team who discuss your baby's diagnosis with you. There is often a bereavement MW present. You are given the full picture. Sometimes tests need to be done another few weeks down the line, so you wait, and hope, and pray. And google, and find articles and websites. Any knowledge or facts that you can. And you hope.

If the worst happens, and your baby continues to deteriorate, or their prognosis/diagnosis becomes even poorer, then you have to choose. It's not a real choice. You spend the time between appointments desperately hoping that their heart will stop on its own so you don't have to choose. It's already your fault that they're poorly, now you have to make this choice for them. The hell of it is something I can't accurately describe.

You have to give birth regardless. And you pack a bag for a child that will never come home, and go to hospital knowing that you will leave with empty arms. You take a fluffy blanket to wrap them in, a book to read them "guess how much I love you". Maybe the baby bubble bath you'd already bought and put in the cupboard with a packet of newborn stashed nappies that you picked up after your 12w scan. "Getting prepared" you thought to yourself at the time.

I was encouraged to have a D&E under general anaesthesia with my second TFMR but was made aware that they were generally only done up to 15/16w so I needed to think quickly as it becomes riskier for the mother. I didn't choose that method with either of mine.

You are told that they cannot feel pain yet, not before 26w, they're not sentient, their brains haven't developed those receptors. And you take that and hold it and hope that they only ever know warmth, love, and your heartbeat. That they've never known pain, fear, hunger and never will

Between then and 22w you give birth without having to consider the injection.

Post 22w then it is offered to have the injection. Not necessarily for all conditions, some babies will not survive the trauma of birth regardless of their gestation.

You have to sign things to say you understand that your baby won't be given medical assistance etc and you swallow a pill to begin your labour.

You give birth to your precious baby. One of mine lived for a short while after birth, what an immense blessing, you name them and begin memory making. Hand and footprints, reading them stories, sing to them, just being with them. You apologize "Mammy is so sorry, she's so sorry my baby, she loves you more than you can ever know". And you carry your cold, dead baby up to a mortuary, you kiss their head, weep and hand them to a nurse who will place them in a cold cot . You leave, amongst happy, excited new dads with car seats, waddling new mums who are smiling, content.

And you go home and you wail "Like a haunted, wounded animal" my DH described the noise that came out of me. And you weep. And you sleep. And you wake up and find that you're living your nightmare. Grief is exhausting. The weight of loss is draining. Your milk comes in, you experience the postpartum hormone drop "baby blues" without your baby.

Then you begin to plan their funeral and start a life which is different from the one before. You are forever changed. You are not the same person. And you can never be sure, if you share your story, that the person you're sharing the deepest, most traumatic experience of your life with won't react with disgust at you and never look at you again in the same way. You can never be guaranteed kindness in your loss and grief.

Nobody would choose this because the baby was the sex they didn't want or because they didn't fancy being pregnant any longer. Or because their baby wasn't "perfect" which gets trotted out on here .Nobody. You wanted to save them the pain, the suffering, the hurt.

It is unpalatable for people to imagine a fully formed baby being "killed", but you cannot imagine the horror of having to live it. These are not unwanted babies, they have been planned for, hoped for, prayed for. They are named and remembered and loved.

This is heartbreaking. I am crying for you and for all the women who have been in this horrific position. Your babies were blessed with a wonderful mother 💐

StellaAndCrow · 25/11/2022 14:53

WhiteFire · 25/11/2022 12:56

I'm not 'glad' but feel that it is the right decision, an uncomfortable one but the right one.

I have read the BBC report, I think the most telling thing is in HC's statement she says she was "angry that the judges say my feelings don't matter" It was too personal for her, and she is therefore unable to separate her feelings from the bigger picture.

Yes, I suspect the groups pushing Heidi forward are telling her that that is what it means - as previous posters have said, they're using her as an emotive mouthpiece. It would be kinder to Heidi to help her understand that the ruling DOESN'T mean that, that her feelings of course matter but shouldn't affect the choices of all women.

StellaAndCrow · 25/11/2022 14:56

Endwalker · 25/11/2022 12:48

Statistics show that the vast majority of women who do not want to be pregnant end the pregnancy prior to 10wks (around 80%), the remaining majority do so by around 13wks. Only 1% take place at 20wks so, despite having until 24wks, most women take care of it long before then. The reasons recorded for the abortion also begin to change from 13wks onwards with an increasing number being ended due to problems with the pregnancy, it's no coincidence that this is following the first universal pregnancy scan where initial problems may be identified.

Only around 270 abortions a year take place after 24wks, all of these are for very specific reasons. Some problems with a pregnancy may not become apparent until after the 20wk anomaly scan (which can take place anywhere from 18wks to 22wks depending on appointment availability). Where a problem is identified time then needs to be allowed for the women involved to consider their options, seek further testing, do some research, speak to family/friends, and make a decision, they may want to take a watch and wait approach to see if the prognosis improves or they may want to get a second opinion. They absolutely should be allowed as much time as they need and should not be rushed into deciding based on a 24wk cut-off, this is why abortion is allowed post-24wks in these circumstances.

Thank you Endwalker, that's really useful information.

RoachTheHorse · 25/11/2022 14:56

@SnotRag22 I just want to send you love. My friend and her partner have also been through that twice and my heart breaks for anyone who has been in that situation.

WiddlinDiddlin · 25/11/2022 14:57

Privatestate1 · 25/11/2022 13:11

I think the case in point here is the fact that it’s illegal to get an abortion past 24 weeks for ‘healthy’ fetus, but for DS it’s legal right up until the baby starts moving through the birth canal, at full term (I think) thus implying that a DS baby is worth less than a ‘healthy’ baby…it is discriminatory against people with DS IMO.

It isn't just Down Syndrome though... this most recent appeal makes it sound like it is, but it isn't and it never has been. It is any pregnancy where the child would "suffer from such physical or mental abnormalities as to be seriously handicapped".

There are many many conditions that would potentially fit that criteria - can we stop making out that this is JUST about Down Syndrome, it really really isn't.

RobertaFirmino · 25/11/2022 14:58

also I do wish people would stop using siblings as an excuse for not wanting a child with DS. disability can happen at any time, did in my family. it hasn't ruined the siblings life.

@Samcro You don't say if the disability in your family was DS. Was it? If it was, surely you would know that it is a spectrum - different people are affected in different ways. They aren't all like Alex in Coronation Street.

In any case, a woman does not need an 'excuse' for not wanting a child with DS. The law states that she does not have to have one and does not require her to give a reason.

Brefugee · 25/11/2022 14:58

@CoastalWave ok so you know how hard it is to raise a disabled child. If diagnosed before birth YOU had the choice to continue or not and YOU made that choice based on your circumstances.
But YOU want to deny other women that choice ...

to be fair @Twizbe i get the impression that CW wouldn't have had the termination whatever happened. Which is her choice to make, of course. And i do hope she has support and resources so that she and her child can have a comfortable life.

girlmom21 · 25/11/2022 14:59

@SnotRag22 I am so, so sorry, but thank you for sharing such raw emotion with us with such honesty.

I am so horrified by some of the posters here and I hope your post gives them a bit of perspective and they wind their stupid necks in.

You're brave and you're brilliant.

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