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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To be glad that the Down Syndrome abortion appeal was defeated

904 replies

Fififafa · 25/11/2022 12:30

A woman with DS has twice tried and failed to get the courts to outlaw abortion beyond 24 weeks for foetuses with DS. Under current legislation for England, Wales and Scotland, there is a 24-week time limit for abortion, unless "there is a substantial risk that if the child were born it would suffer from such physical or mental abnormalities as to be seriously handicapped", which includes Down's syndrome.
I read that she has is being supported by some religious group.

I’m glad that the appeal was lost. This is a personal decision that every woman has the choice and the right to make. What Heidi Crowter et al are doing, is fighting to remove that choice from women. AIBU?

OP posts:
ArabellaScott · 25/11/2022 14:26

notinagreatplace Flowers for you and your baby. What a terribly difficult choice to have to have made.

BloodAndFire · 25/11/2022 14:26

dandyma · 25/11/2022 14:15

I am pro choice but really I don't know why pro choice people peddle this. All of a sudden it's as if something magical happens when it's born, and then it suddenly has all these rights

It is killing a baby. Come on now - but I 100% agree with being able to make that choice as late as necessary. Any woman can choose any reason

All of a sudden it's as if something magical happens when it's born, and then it suddenly has all these rights

That is how law, and language, work.

Like something magical happens on your 18th birthday when you magically transform from a 'child' into an 'adult' and 'suddenly you have all these rights' - like you can vote and get married without parental consent and buy houses and stuff. Weird innit. Why do we do this stupid thing of calling it a 'child' before it's 18 when it's obviously been an 'adult' all along?

Fucking hell.

pointythings · 25/11/2022 14:26

Really struggling to see why another needs the full 9 months in any circumstance.

In practice of course they do not. TFMR post 24 weeks usually happen on the earlier end of the 24 - term time bracket. But that timescale needs to be there for when the TFMR is unexpected - for instance where the mother is diagnosed with cancer and needs urgent treatment which will affect the pregnancy. Under normal circumstances you'd probably see most women in that situation choosing early induction - but some might not, for instance if their cancer was so serious that their prospects of survival were very very limited and they did not want to give birth to a child who would not have a mother. That is a choice women should have.

It's not the choice you would make. We get that. But you do not get to decide what other women should choose.

PeeJayDay · 25/11/2022 14:27

"You hope I'm banned? That's kind."

And there it is. "Be Kind" little women and do as you are told because @CoastalWave says so

SabiRiver · 25/11/2022 14:27

CoastalWave · 25/11/2022 12:33

24 weeks is more than enough bloody time to realise you don't want a baby imo.

Think its disgraceful you can abort at all past 16 weeks but there you go.

In many cases it is unknown that the child has Down Syndrome until after 20 week scan, then there could be a wait for amniocentesis to confirm then a week or 2 to take the news in and make a decision. It's not a as cut and dry as you seem to think.

BloodAndFire · 25/11/2022 14:27

KitchiHuritAngeni · 25/11/2022 14:00

When my daughter was born it turns out she had several bones break and reset during pregnancy.

She has multiple breaks and fractures as I birthed her.

She couldn't breathe.

She spent her whole short life laid there with a tube down her throat to breathe for her. A feeding tube in her nose. In pain constantly.

She had daily, sometimes hourly, painful tests, which she couldn't be medicated too much for because she was a newborn baby.

There was absolutely nothing wrong with her brain, she was alert and aware.

Your simplistic cut off point could have left me with no choice in my next pregnancy (when I found out my dds condition could potentially be genetic at 6 months) to put another baby through the torture my dd went through, which is just horrific.

You can't support some things through "tax and compassion" and to state such a thing on a thread like this just makes you sound a stupid and naive, at best.

I'm so sorry for everything you went through.

CoastalWave · 25/11/2022 14:27

Twizbe · 25/11/2022 14:24

@CoastalWave ok so you know how hard it is to raise a disabled child. If diagnosed before birth YOU had the choice to continue or not and YOU made that choice based on your circumstances.

But YOU want to deny other women that choice ...

No, we had no idea whilst pregnant. I would not have terminated. I wanted a child. I'm not denying anyone that choice. For about the 50th time, I don't agree with it up to full term. 6 months is plenty in 99.9999% of cases.

EmmaAgain22 · 25/11/2022 14:28

hugznotdrugz · 25/11/2022 12:38

@WWimpoleHat so it'd be OK to abort at 38 weeks just due to changing your mind?? I'd worry that a rule like that would disproportionately effect mothers with antenatal depression etc

I think the laws should stay as they are.

Um....do you realise what would be involved? Do you therefore not see how vanishingly unlikely this would be?

BloodAndFire · 25/11/2022 14:29

CoastalWave · 25/11/2022 14:25

You hope I'm banned? That's kind. Last time I checked, people are entitled to their own opinions.

There will always be exceptions and sadly, always heartbreaking stories. I haven't read the full thread - I'm working and really don't have time. I've posted a couple of posts.

I've lost a baby myself (and yes, she was a baby although according to all the pro abortion people on here I only lost a foetus - go figure that one) at 17 weeks. Utterly traumatic. I also have a disabled child.

Do I think women should just be allowed to abort right up to 9 months? No. I don't.

You've posted many, many times on this thread, from the first page to the last, and yet somehow you're too busy to read the multiple first-hand experiences of women who have actually lived this?

How fucking convenient. How fucking compassionate. What a piece of work you are.

Thebestwaytoscareatory · 25/11/2022 14:29

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Out of interest why do you care so strongly about theoretical children and not actual children?

I'm sure you'll say you care about both but surely it would be better to focus your time, effort, and money on helping currently living children have a better standard of life than trying to make sure theorical children are born whether the mother wanted to progress with the birth or not?

Oh and funny how you refer to foetuses and babies as "it". You'd think someone who so firmly believes foetuses are alive would refer to them in living terms i.e., "they".

Dentistlakes · 25/11/2022 14:29

I’m guessing the extra time may take into account the timing of having an amniocentesis? Don’t you have to wait until a certain point to have one? If you have a concerning result from a scan and then have to wait for an amino, then time to decide, it could take a while.

i agree op, it’s not a decision anyone wants to face, but women need time to make it.

BloodAndFire · 25/11/2022 14:30

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IamtheDevilsAvocado · 25/11/2022 14:31

Cuppasoupmonster · 25/11/2022 12:37

YANBU. How arrogant of people to want to restrict women’s heartbreaking choices because they feel indulgently ‘uncomfortable’ with them (but of course, wouldn’t have the responsibility of potentially bringing up a child with significant needs themselves). As early as possible, as late as necessary.

Well said 👍

How dare a religious observer /a parent who's luckily had a child with disabilities who isn't going to live a short painful life... /insert misguided reason here...

How absolutely DARE anyone say what a woman should have to tolerate often for the rest of their natural life.

NO WOMAN MAKES THIS DECISION LIGHTLY..

jambalover · 25/11/2022 14:31

CoastalWave · 25/11/2022 12:33

24 weeks is more than enough bloody time to realise you don't want a baby imo.

Think its disgraceful you can abort at all past 16 weeks but there you go.

Yep agree with this. The idea you can 'abort' a full term baby because of a disability is barbaric.

And I'm pro choice.

NadjaCravensworth · 25/11/2022 14:32

monsteramunch · 25/11/2022 14:15

@CoastalWave

You've presumably read the posts on this thread from women who had to make heartbreaking late term decisions and have still posted such utter vitriol.

I hope your posts are removed and I hope you are banned.

I'd sign a petition to have CoastalWave removed

SnotRag22 · 25/11/2022 14:32

I have posted this on another thread previously, but thought I would also put it here. I have had two TFMRs, or as they're more often known in the community, compassionate induction.

It wouldn't, and doesn't happen that term babies are aborted, just because. Ever.
Babies who have DS, when their mothers choose TFMR are, overwhelmingly, born shortly after the dating scan. Anomalies that necessitate a late TFMR often can't, or aren't picked up until the anatomy scan, which can be anywhere from 18-21w.

When a mother chooses compassionate induction for a late term baby, it's because that baby will suffer and then die. And the mother cannot bear to watch her darling baby fade away in pain.

Once you have been through the anatomy scan. Then there's a very detailed and lengthy follow up scan in fetal medicine, and then often another "making absolutely sure scan". You are referred to a specialist medical team who discuss your baby's diagnosis with you. There is often a bereavement MW present. You are given the full picture. Sometimes tests need to be done another few weeks down the line, so you wait, and hope, and pray. And google, and find articles and websites. Any knowledge or facts that you can. And you hope.

If the worst happens, and your baby continues to deteriorate, or their prognosis/diagnosis becomes even poorer, then you have to choose. It's not a real choice. You spend the time between appointments desperately hoping that their heart will stop on its own so you don't have to choose. It's already your fault that they're poorly, now you have to make this choice for them. The hell of it is something I can't accurately describe.

You have to give birth regardless. And you pack a bag for a child that will never come home, and go to hospital knowing that you will leave with empty arms. You take a fluffy blanket to wrap them in, a book to read them "guess how much I love you". Maybe the baby bubble bath you'd already bought and put in the cupboard with a packet of newborn stashed nappies that you picked up after your 12w scan. "Getting prepared" you thought to yourself at the time.

I was encouraged to have a D&E under general anaesthesia with my second TFMR but was made aware that they were generally only done up to 15/16w so I needed to think quickly as it becomes riskier for the mother. I didn't choose that method with either of mine.

You are told that they cannot feel pain yet, not before 26w, they're not sentient, their brains haven't developed those receptors. And you take that and hold it and hope that they only ever know warmth, love, and your heartbeat. That they've never known pain, fear, hunger and never will

Between then and 22w you give birth without having to consider the injection.

Post 22w then it is offered to have the injection. Not necessarily for all conditions, some babies will not survive the trauma of birth regardless of their gestation.

You have to sign things to say you understand that your baby won't be given medical assistance etc and you swallow a pill to begin your labour.

You give birth to your precious baby. One of mine lived for a short while after birth, what an immense blessing, you name them and begin memory making. Hand and footprints, reading them stories, sing to them, just being with them. You apologize "Mammy is so sorry, she's so sorry my baby, she loves you more than you can ever know". And you carry your cold, dead baby up to a mortuary, you kiss their head, weep and hand them to a nurse who will place them in a cold cot . You leave, amongst happy, excited new dads with car seats, waddling new mums who are smiling, content.

And you go home and you wail "Like a haunted, wounded animal" my DH described the noise that came out of me. And you weep. And you sleep. And you wake up and find that you're living your nightmare. Grief is exhausting. The weight of loss is draining. Your milk comes in, you experience the postpartum hormone drop "baby blues" without your baby.

Then you begin to plan their funeral and start a life which is different from the one before. You are forever changed. You are not the same person. And you can never be sure, if you share your story, that the person you're sharing the deepest, most traumatic experience of your life with won't react with disgust at you and never look at you again in the same way. You can never be guaranteed kindness in your loss and grief.

Nobody would choose this because the baby was the sex they didn't want or because they didn't fancy being pregnant any longer. Or because their baby wasn't "perfect" which gets trotted out on here .Nobody. You wanted to save them the pain, the suffering, the hurt.

It is unpalatable for people to imagine a fully formed baby being "killed", but you cannot imagine the horror of having to live it. These are not unwanted babies, they have been planned for, hoped for, prayed for. They are named and remembered and loved.

BloodAndFire · 25/11/2022 14:32

jambalover · 25/11/2022 14:31

Yep agree with this. The idea you can 'abort' a full term baby because of a disability is barbaric.

And I'm pro choice.

I eat beef and chicken and fish every day. I particularly enjoy a cheese omelette.

And I'm a vegan.

CoastalWave · 25/11/2022 14:32

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I've never said that. You're mistaking me with someone else.

CoastalWave · 25/11/2022 14:33

NadjaCravensworth · 25/11/2022 14:32

I'd sign a petition to have CoastalWave removed

Oh stop being ridiculous.

BloodAndFire · 25/11/2022 14:34

CoastalWave · 25/11/2022 14:27

No, we had no idea whilst pregnant. I would not have terminated. I wanted a child. I'm not denying anyone that choice. For about the 50th time, I don't agree with it up to full term. 6 months is plenty in 99.9999% of cases.

CoastalWave · Today 12:33
24 weeks is more than enough bloody time to realise you don't want a baby imo.
Think its disgraceful you can abort at all past 16 weeks but there you go.

So is it 6 months, or 16 weeks? The magical time you think no one should be allowed to abort after?

backyardbackfire · 25/11/2022 14:34

jambalover · 25/11/2022 14:31

Yep agree with this. The idea you can 'abort' a full term baby because of a disability is barbaric.

And I'm pro choice.

You’re not pro choice!

HTH. 🙃

monsteramunch · 25/11/2022 14:34

@CoastalWave

Firstly I'm very sorry for your previous loss, it's terrible you went through that and I hope you had supportive people around you to help.

There will always be exceptions and sadly, always heartbreaking stories. I haven't read the full thread - I'm working and really don't have time. I've posted a couple of posts.

It's unacceptable to post repeatedly on a thread about termination calling it murder, responding to some posters while apparently missing every single one from women who have made heartbreaking decisions.

If you really 'don't have time' then posting on what you know will be a highly emotive thread then returning not (apparently) to read anything other than a tiny selection of other people's posts and respond to them by calling people murderers seems like pretty unwise course of action.

And finally, don't tell me to be kind when you've been repeatedly cruel and callous.

BloodAndFire · 25/11/2022 14:35

CoastalWave · 25/11/2022 14:32

I've never said that. You're mistaking me with someone else.

So sorry, you're right, you said 16 weeks. I've quoted it above. So you don't think women should be allowed to have an abortion if they discover at the 20+ week anomaly scan that their baby has a condition incompatible with life. That's nice of you.
Your boss must be delighted with you. You've posted as much on this thread as everyone else put together and you're apparently 'too busy at work' to read or respond to the stories of women who have actually had to go through this.

Whiskyvodka · 25/11/2022 14:36

At her 20 week anomaly scan dd found out that dgc has talipes(club foot). This diagnosis means that the baby has a 1 in 5 chance of other birth defects eg spina bifida.
Dd had to be scanned every 4 weeks.
Fortunately dgc has no other disabilities but the fact is a serious defect could have been found after 24 weeks.

Twizbe · 25/11/2022 14:36

monsteramunch · 25/11/2022 14:34

@CoastalWave

Firstly I'm very sorry for your previous loss, it's terrible you went through that and I hope you had supportive people around you to help.

There will always be exceptions and sadly, always heartbreaking stories. I haven't read the full thread - I'm working and really don't have time. I've posted a couple of posts.

It's unacceptable to post repeatedly on a thread about termination calling it murder, responding to some posters while apparently missing every single one from women who have made heartbreaking decisions.

If you really 'don't have time' then posting on what you know will be a highly emotive thread then returning not (apparently) to read anything other than a tiny selection of other people's posts and respond to them by calling people murderers seems like pretty unwise course of action.

And finally, don't tell me to be kind when you've been repeatedly cruel and callous.

This!

You need to make the time @CoastalWave to read some real life stories from mothers who have been through a later term abortions.

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