To want my autistic DC to start reception in mainstream?

[Ambern7]

DC gets on well at mainstream nursery but is developmentally behind peers. I am not happy with the special needs provisions in our area so have opted for mainstream with good support in place through EHCP, which we fought hard for.
However, professionals involved keep asking me if we are sure we don’t want to go with the special provisions, they have listed lots of things they think are great about the school, however I don’t think the facilities will benefit my DC personally.
These unwanted opinions have got me second guessing something I was so sure of previously. I just don’t see the problem of starting off in mainstream and seeing how it goes, AIBU?

OP if specialist provision is being offered I would be inclined to take it.

I know it may seem like the professionals involved have spent a short time with your child but they are trained to go in and seek out specific information in that time to help inform the specific needs of each child.

You mentioned speech and language being one of the reasons this placement is being offered - does the school in question have therapists working directly in the school?

For complete transparency I'm a SALT in a specialist language school. Around 30% of our intake are autistic. Happy for you to DM me if you want to chat further.

Also if the specialist ASD setting only intakes from 7 you may find there are children who transfer from mainstream at that stage.

We have children who transfer into school at every key stage.

This is a much clearer post than mine. Agree wholeheartedly with this.

@RunLolaRun102 has a very valid point about treatment by other children.

As much as inclusivity and everyone being nice to each other would be ideal it is a risk. I have worked with a three adults that had ASD diagnosed and had been in mainstream school , all of them were bullied. They were all extremely clever as all academics.

In the area where I'm a school governor there aren't enough places in special schools for the children who need them, so you're fortunate in that respect.
The professionals don't make this recommendation lightly and I think you should reconsider. Even with support in place and the bit of funding from the EHCP, it doesn't guarantee that the school can recruit the specialist help your child needs. In fact with the current recruitment problems it's more likely that they can't and will have to compromise.
The issue of the strain that having a child with significant additional needs in a class puts on the teacher and other children isn't your problem. But I do think that can also impact on the quality of support that your child would receive, just because there is only so much teacher time to go round. In a special school the class numbers will be lower and the staff will have the training and experience.

Special School places are extremely hard to find nowadays. If the professionals are strongly recommending it for you I would take their advice. I used to teach in mainstream and have known several children with autism who probably shouldn't have been there. We did the best we could for them but it wasn't always enough.

I'm talking about the children's obvious distress btw nothing to do with academic achievement or otherwise.

Professionals don’t suggest SS unless it’s necessary. Have you looked at all the special schools within travelling distance, including the independent ones?

However, you have a right to a mainstream education, so if you go down that route make sure section F is watertight it is enforceable. For example, if 1:1 is specified and quantified and the school use the 1:1 for the wider class you will be able to challenge it. Same for the 1:1s qualifications, training, experience, a well written EHCP will include them so it can’t just be anyone.

If you do decide to start in MS then wish to move (With the exception of wholly independent schools where you need an offer of a place.) on its own being full is not enough of a reason to refuse to name your preference - the LA has to prove the school is so full admitting DC is incompatible. Which is a higher bar than many LAs like to think. It is more than just proving there will be an “adverse effect”, “impact on” or “prejudicial to”. Although the LA may force you to appeal. And obviously there comes a point when they can prove this.

The loneliest children I have ever taught in KS2 are those with full-time 1:1s who cannot access any of the class work. Yes, they are physically ‘in mainstream’, but their (necessarily completely differentiated) education and therapy is delivered in small corners or individual rooms, almost entirely by unqualified TAs, even if planned by the class teacher and overseen by the SENCo. They are in the same playground and the same assembly hall as their peers and they are treated kindly if often condescendingly by their ‘classmates’, whose interactions with the child are often facilitated and organised by the adult 1:1 rather than being genuine and spontaneous inclusion.

In your position, I would be focusing in very great detail on the admissions to your preferred 7+ special school. Where do their children come from - mainstream or other special schools? When do they typically apply and with what evidence? How badly does a child have to be failing in their existing setting to be admitted (this is the hard one - you may find that your child either has to suffer extremely in mainstream to qualify OR be leapfrogged by others who are suffering much more than them)?

iIn my experience (of a mainstream with at least one child with a diagnosis of ASD in every class), the children who fare best in mainstream primary are those whose academic levels fall within the norm for the mainstream class, who are well-supported (through full time 1:1 if needed) to address the other challenges they face through their diagnosis, and whose sensory needs (eg reaction to bright, noisy, busy environments) are not extreme. Those who fare the worst are those with learning needs that put them academically as outliers within the class as well as ASD, or whose behaviour or sensory needs mean they spend very little time in the classroom, because their need for full differentiation of the curriculum and behaviour supprt as well as other support leads to the isolation that I have described. Or worse, if 1:1s are absent, not able to be employed or not yet applied for, their unsupported distress can lead to extreme behaviour within the classroom setting.

The children that get in at 7 will be those that have crashed and burned with significant trauma in the preceding mainstream years. Things can become utterly terrible.

As a warning on professional recommendation - many medical professionals in particular have absolutely no idea how difficult it is to get a Special School place, and the level of both need and evidence required. They may be of the belief that such a place is to be had ‘for the asking’, and thus what they are suggesting may be wholly unrealistic.

I would definitely start the fight now, in the expectation that you will not get a place for Reception. Treating the trial in mainstream as an evidence-gathering process, with further evidence, applications and appeals you may find that you may not be able to get a place until closer to your ‘desired entry point’ of 7+ anyway.

with further evidence, applications and appeals you may find that you may not be able to get a place until closer to your ‘desired entry point’ of 7+ anyway.

I agree with this, appeals are taking around a year at the moment and that is ever growing.

I know that is true for 4+ entry Special Schools. However, the OP mentions a 7+ SS focussed on ASD and I am curious about its admissions process. It may well be that it gathers those children diagnosed during a traumatic 3 years in Reception/KS1 in mainstream, and prioritises those who have crashed and burned worst. However, there may be a more ‘orderly’ route - possibly avoiding this trauma - whereby children from the more general 4+ Special Schools whose primary diagnosis is ASD transfer to this school for 7+.

Many of the SS I know that start at some point in KS2 are a mixture of those who have previously attended other SS and those who have been in MS until then.

I would absolutely definitely go down the special needs route first (I speak from experience btw). It is nigh on impossible to transfer from mainstream to special needs but (as others have said) it’s more feasible in reverse. My adult autistic son went to a special needs school and we had to fight for it. If this provision is being offered I would have no hesitation in accepting.

Which is what the OP needs to investigate now - what is the balance between the two routes for this school which do they find most successful for children, what evidence is needed (must the first SS placement fail, or is it a fairly automatic transfer through changing the named school on EHCP), ratio of successful to unsuccessful applicants via each route etcc etc.

I would hope that, once in the SS system, a smooth process would exist fir 7+ transfer, and this would be a further benefit of starting in a SS in Reception, even if not totally ideal.

Depressing read isn't it. Really wish the newspapers would highlight posts like this over the sensational ones

Yes, I may be being too pessimistic but my experience (and I appreciate that it is not necessarily representative) is that generally that those around a child who has managed more or less ok will find it difficult to demonstrate that needs cannot be met in mainstream, particularly if the MS school is not saying a SS is needed. I have not seen evidence of forward planning in terms of avoiding problems later down the line although I appreciate that it may be possible for parents to force the issue via tribunal.

Autistic focused schools like the +7 one are an absolute dying breed, I'd start researching now as others have said what the admissions criteria/process is for that, to see if it's even a possibility, it may be a lot easier to transfer from the special school.

As others have said going back to mainstream is easy compared to going from mainstream to special mid year or later in their school career is a lot lot lot harder. I'd really think about why they are advising it (rare, not many places)

My DGS was fine in nursery. Year R in an outstanding school was a disaster. He was basically left sitting in a corner apart from the class with his TA. They couldn't cope with his autism at all.

Luckily it was arranged that he went to a special school to try it out and he loved it. He transferred in year 1 and his progress was so rapid.

This is all really interesting. I must say I am surprised by how overwhelmingly people recommend SEN. We are not in UK (so not sure if different) but I hear very often about getting "stuck" in the SEN system and the move to mainstream being more difficult. To be honest I don't really think MS is likely to be on the table for my DC but it is interesting that experiences here don't seem to support this argument.

OP, my foster son does not have autism diagnoses, but does have quite a lot of autistic traits. He does have global development delay and moderate learning Disability. His IQ is below 70. He went to a SN nursery unit before living with me, and responded well. He started a mainstream school. SS decided where he would go. He did make two friends but he was so far behind other children. He could not do it to he work.other children could. After the first year he was about 8 months behind his cohort. After second year he was 18 months behind and he noticed he was given different work and it upset him. Other children can be cruel and at least 2 children called him dummy when he could not read. It was soul destroying seeing him lose all confidence. In the end we managed to get him into a special primary school where he was on a par with other children. He carried on went to a special secondary with same children. He made some good friends. Miraculously, and after having a lot of private tutoring on top of specialist provision he managed to get 2 GCSE grades 4. 1 in Science and 1 in Food. He has now gone to a mainstream college where they have brilliant provision as n DD he is studying a level 2 BTec Sport course as he is very good at Sport and resitting GCSE Maths as he got level 3 before and attempting the Functional Skills English. He is doing really well. We wondered when he went into specialist provision if he would ever go back into mainstream but he has and is coping well. Think really carefully and find out what exams are available as t secondary level in special school as some do offer limited GCSEs and others do not offer any GCSEs.

This is all very eye opening. It seems to be the consensus that the best thing is to start fighting for a place at the SEN school that I categorically didn’t think was the best environment for DC.

I understand why this could be the case but it doesn’t seem that fair on DC. I always thought I would do what was best at each stage of their development and always make sure they were in an environment to suit needs at that time. Unfortunately it seems that’s not how it works in this country and you do need to think carefully about the long term plan.
I plan on doing a lot of research on how to get into the school that starts at 7. I’ve found that many professionals don’t give you a full picture and it is probably best to talk to other parents and see how they managed to get in and what their journeys were like.

I think the ‘do what’s best at every stage’ is an admirable ideal, but only really works if there is sufficient over-supply of school places of all types to allow straightforward and rapid movement at any point. This really isn’t the current position, and tbh hasn’t been for quite sone time.

I don’t think you are alone. I am only too aware of cases where parents have said ‘we’ll keep in mainstream until we think special school would be better’, only to be genuinely shocked when they find the transfer process is measured in years.

The added information about how you got his EHCP, that you posted at 00:13 makes a BIG difference to this discussion.

@ExhaustedFlamingo has added some excellent posts (and I'm only up to P3 in reading through so far)