To want my autistic DC to start reception in mainstream?

[Ambern7]

DC gets on well at mainstream nursery but is developmentally behind peers. I am not happy with the special needs provisions in our area so have opted for mainstream with good support in place through EHCP, which we fought hard for.
However, professionals involved keep asking me if we are sure we don’t want to go with the special provisions, they have listed lots of things they think are great about the school, however I don’t think the facilities will benefit my DC personally.
These unwanted opinions have got me second guessing something I was so sure of previously. I just don’t see the problem of starting off in mainstream and seeing how it goes, AIBU?

Personally I’d go mainstream as long as possible. I think being part of your local community rather than taxied off is important especially if he has siblings. Help the school give him the best start you can. (And my autistic language delayed child learnt to read long before he could string sentences together so aim high).

In my local authority, places in specialist provision are like gold dust!
I would go with specialist provision and then you could always go to mainstream later.

when my son started school we were advised and applied for specialist provision but we didn’t get a place and he had to go to mainstream with support.
He was there for 2 years and we knew it wasn’t right for him but we had to fight to get a place in a special needs school.

He’s now 14 and still in specialist provision,he still needs a lot of support and he loves his school!

Have you spoken to the specialist provision that starts at 7 to see where their intake generally comes from?

My DD goes to a specialist school for different reasons. While they don’t officially have a catchment nursery there is one that they have very, very close links with. We went with that provision even though it was our second choice because of the benefits for the transition a relatively short time later.

It depends on your DC's needs of course but as a primary teacher who has taught several DC with autism over the past couple of decades, I would say being in possession of an EHCP does not necessarily mean getting good support in a mainstream school. Although pupils are always valued and accepted well by their peers, we have very limited autism-specific training. In the current climate, it is also very difficult to recruit teaching assistants. Many are leaving in their droves for better-paid employment and schools are really scraping around for staff to provide the required hours for pupils with EHCPs. 1:1 teaching assistants are particularly hard to recruit as the role can be quite intense and not necessarily come with the right level of training.

From my own experience, I would say ASD students with good verbal skills have generally been more successful in a mainstream setting than those without. You knowyoir child best though. Have you had any opportunity to observe how your local school manages other students with ASD?

@Ambern7 trust your instincts. I've been where you are. Start him off with agreed half days at mainstream school and with support he'll adapt and adjust over time. Every child is different and mothers really need to be listened to. I was told to send my child to a school that didn't feel right for him and I'm glad I wasn't bullied into it. He's very happy where he is and the school has made him feel very welcome. I really hope things work out for you.

I’m a mainstream primary teacher. Specialist provisions are so hard to get that I would really recommend you consider everything you are offered. Your dc will get more resources and support there.

I currently teach year 6 and have a child in my class who I’ve known since she was in nursery. Her differences were not noticed by the other children in the early years, but as she has grown, the gap between her and her peers has grown and she is very aware. They are kind and respectful to her, and ask her to sit with them or run around in the playground, but she has speech delay and they don’t really take time to listen or chat to her. She sits with them, but isn’t really included in the preteen conversations and dramas. She spends most of her playground time talking to adults.

Her confidence and esteem are on the floor because she cannot access the same learning as her peers. For most of the day’s lessons she either ‘joins in’ (and knows she isn’t participating in the same way) or does her own work alone. She now regularly refuses to come to school. I have 29 pupils and very little help or support for her (she gets 4 hours 1:1 a week, which she loves) because there is no money for such things. Support in mainstream generally gets given to children with more challenging behaviours. She will go to a mainstream secondary despite not being able to read, write, or count past 10.

I have managed to get her one morning a week at a specialist provision. She adores it. She learns life skills with peers, has one to one support and has made a genuine friend. Had she had more specialist intervention early on, she may well have made more academic progress. I certainly believe she would have been happier and more fulfilled.

^^exactly this.

I have twin DC, one in specialist provision, one in mainstream. Both started in mainstream.

My DS had a statement while still in nursery but I was pushed VERY hard by the local Advisory Teaching Service to "try" mainstream because "do you want him to fail in life?" I didn't know better at the time and just accepted their "expert" opinion even though it went against every instinct.

HIs experiences in mainstream seriously scarred him, even though we were at a lovely school.

However, the support typically isn't an expert in autism - due to resources, any old TA can get assigned as their 1:1. The 1:1 can be often diverted to do classroom work because children in mainstream don't get completely F/T hours.

In a class of 30 (or more) young children who are all trying to navigate learning and staying in their seats and being quiet, there's just not the capacity to give your child what they need to flourish if it's vastly different from the norm, even with a 1:1.

As the academic demands grow, the gap often gets wider and this all takes a toll on your child's confidence.

So you decide that mainstream doesn't work after all, but what's that? The LA tell you that you can't just decide that it's not best. You need documented proof for a change of provision. That's emergency meetings, and evidence from professionals, plus the school needs to agree they can't meet his needs. If your child is just quietly shutting down rather than aggressive and outwardly exploding, many schools won't recognise just how bad things are. And that's because they don't have the in-depth knowledge of your child because there's 30 others in the class. It's a lottery whether the Ed Psych will support the move - some seem to think that an autistic child stick with mainstream no matter what.

And also, if you chose mainstream the LA will often expect you to demonstrate why things have changed - especially if you stuck mainstream out for some time.

Even if - perhaps with the help of you fab lawyer again - you manage to get sufficient evidence to persuade the LA's faceless board, you then face the challenge of finding a placement. Your child is in school, they aren't a priority.

As well as being a parent of two autistic children, I was also the SEN governor for our school for 5+ years. I could tell you so many stories of parents whose child desperately needed a specialist provision but getting the move accomplished was an uphill battle, and it was getting even harder when I left a couple of years ago.

In other countries, children don't start academic learning until the age of 7 - we start very early and our academic results aren't any better as a result. You have time to make a decision. If there's an autism-specific placement near you which has the same small class sizes as a regular special school, plus the same access to expert TAs and teachers, then I'd snap that up.

Like @saraclara says, it's easy to switch to mainstream from specialist provision but I really can't emphasise enough how hard it is to go the other way - regardless of what the recommendations are now for your child. LAs are squeezed financially and there's just not enough places to go round. You will have to - and I quote - be able to prove that your child is failing in mainstream to be able to be eligible for a move. It doesn't matter if they're barely clinging on; if they're coping, then you won't get a move.

I know it's crap and I'm sorry. But you won't be dooming your DS just by starting out in special school. How about supplementing it with mainstream clubs so he gets a mix of social interaction?

You need to ask the specialist setting if attending a mainstream vs a different specialist setting from reception makes any difference to bring accepted/offered a place.

It is clear you prefer the mainstream for eyfs/hopefully ks1 but obviously don’t want to disadvantage your chance of getting into the autism specific Sen school by ks2.

@ofwarren - it really does depend on the child and the LA, but generally moving from mainstream to specialist provision is incredibly hard, even at the point of secondary provision.

You'd have to get the mainstream secondary schools to agree that they can't meet your DS's needs. If you want to move before he reaches secondary, you'll have to get the current school to say they can't meet his needs, even with extra EHCP funding. Lots of schools won't want to say they can't meet needs of a student who is currently attending, unless they are aggressive/outwardly being disruptive/violent/melting down. Children who are quietly failing just aren't given the same focus.

Also bear in mind that children who are moving to a specialist provision actually start a year earlier than mainstream parents. So if wait until he's in Y6 to request a specialist provision, there's no chance there will be any spaces for him in the following September. SEN secondary placements start being assessed from the Easter of Y5 because the process is so complex.

Of course it's not impossible to move a child to specialist provision from mainstream, and secondary school provides a good transition point for a change. But you'll need everyone on board and professional opinions from Ed Psych, SALT, school etc to agree that your child is failing in mainstream. It isn't a case of what's better as that's irrelevant. Unfortunately. If your child isn't objectively failing you will have an uphill battle to get a change in setting agreed by your LA.

I'm a parent of 13 yr old SEN twins, one in mainstream and one in specialist provision. I was also the SEN governor for 5+ years so saw tens and tens of children struggle to get a placement agreed.

Please do try if you think it's right for your child, but push for a specialist provision when the EHCP is initially agreed - this is your best chance of getting a change in the setting. You might have to wait for a space but that's OK as he can just continue in his mainstream until then. Once the EHCP is up and running, requesting a change in the provision is a PITA and the LA will be reluctant to agree.

I say getting on well at nursery as enjoying the busy nursery environment, getting involved in (some of) the organised nursery activities, even playing with the other kids on occasion.

Although this great, it does not suggest school readiness. Can your DC reliably recognise their own (written)name ? Feed themselves with knife and fork ? Take themselves to the toilet? Manage a simple turn taking game such as "snap" ? Do they understand complex verbal instructions (such as go get your coats on and line up)? Without these skills mainstream will be a struggle.

@Goatinthegarden why hasn't the school applied for an EHCP for that pupil? She would have the funding then.

As an ex-teacher I would almost always recommend specialist provision if it is offered. Pupils with a higher level of SEN are frequently excluded in the classroom, with inclusion often possible in name only. In a busy class of 30 pupils they mostly cannot take part in the same activities at the same time as the other pupils or form genuine friendships with their peers. They often receive very little teacher input and rely on teaching and support from TAs, who are often lovely and dedicated, but lack the specialist knowledge to help them achieve all that is possible.

I've been in SEN schools as supply. Specialist schools are far more likely to have the staff, setting and resources to enable their pupils to achieve more. Also, far more importantly they will have the chance to be a valued member of the school community and fully included. This is so, so important for happiness and good mental health. They can also provide more opportunities to work on relevant skills that will help with independence in the future.

I am also going against the grain here. I have a son who is autistic/dyslexic/dyspraxic/adhd. I am also autistic/adhd. My son was diagnosed in nursery, he had speech challenges, was playing alongside as opposed to with and had the attention span of a gnat :) He has an EHCP with a full time one to one in and it was recommended by the early years team at the time that he went into a mainstream setting.

The challenge with many specialist provisions is that they are working to adaptive curriculum so therefore the shift back out to mainstream can be a challenge depending on the school. Our son needed to be around MS peers as he was learning by mirroring behaviour. We also relocated so he is in his second primary currently.

I won't say it has been easy, I have had many battles to fight over his support and I have had to educate and support a lot of teachers. However he is happy, he is thriving, has a one to one who works with him in his own way. She engages his special interests and builds his curriculum around those at times, she does sensory circuits, he works both in and out of the classroom depending on how he is doing at the time. We still have some battles but he is also happy knowing who he is. I am open about my disabilities, I work in disability and neurodivergency so he is being brought up with his sibling in a adapted and understanding household as well.

I will likely be looking at specialist provision that runs national curriculum or a unit attached to a mainstream for secondary as I am very conscious that the teenage years, hormones and the social rules that are so complicated as a teen may well be too much. Teenagers can be mean and I want him to flourish without the bullying that will likely happen in secondary, or at least with a school/environment who understand how to support him.

She has an IEP (we’re in Scotland, I just said Yr6 to make it clearer). She gets 8 hours a week. 4 in class and 4 to take her to her provision.

Realistically though, schools can’t hire support staff (probably because of terrible wages on offer) so I know of children with IEPs, entitled to hours, who don’t currently get them because the staff don’t exist.

My DD (3.5yo) will be starting SEN pre school soon. But for us it was a bit clearer because MS nursery had said they weren’t coping, and SEN nursery staff advised the SEN route (similar to what others have said I took that advice as more of a strong recommendation)

we looked at MS schools too (also bc of waiting lists and catchment etc) and I have struggled a bit with not going down that route, also bc you hear that it’s easier for kids to learn language when it’s modelled well etc, and I’ve also heard it’s hard to switch out of SEN, pretty unusual, but tbh didn’t feel like we had a choice at this point. Can imagine it feels harder if you have a choice of sorts

I would say that there was a period where it seemed DD was ‘doing well’ at MS nursery as your DC, but in hindsight think her meltdowns and terrible sleep at home were probably in part dealing with the stress of it all for her. I am intrigued though if your DC joins in a bit and plays with other kids why would you be sure of an autism diagnosis? Not questioning you obviously you know him best (we are also awaiting diagnosis and I also have no doubt), but a lot of autistic children at that age would not be managing to do that

lastly that sounds great to have an autistic school, they are really rare I think and would love to have that option

My son is in mainstream he has 24 hours per week support. Whilst I am pro mainstream in terms of him achieving academically (which he is) for the most part the knowledge and understanding of autism in mainstream schools is limited. I've found the older my son gets (yr3) the less 'tolerant' the school is of his autistic traits. There has also been issues with them allocating his one to one elsewhere. It's a constant battle to ensure ehcp is adhered to and that reasonable adjustments are made. It is very much teacher dependent too, in yr1 he had an amazing teacher who was in regular communication with me. In year 2 he had a teacher who clearly didn't believe in asd and constantly disregarded his needs and disciplined him for struggling. Also the treatment he gets from his peers , he is obviously 'different' and the older they get the more he has been subjected to bullying. Judgment from parents too, ds quickly got a name as 'the naughty child' and he was left off party lists, children told not to play with him and on a few occasions I've been accosted in the playground because my son has upset a child. (Not violence usually something like stroking hair ) He did love school up to year 1, we have noticed a deterioration in his regulation since yr 2 which is definitely school related. Although in mainstream ds is considered high need he would not be considered for Sen school at this time because 1, school are meeting need (albeit adequately) and 2, he's achieving academically. Also sen schools are massively over subscribed, I know of Sen children who literally can not cope in mainstream who are on long wait lists.

Professionals do not recommend Sen school lightly , if they are saying it's the most suitable environment for your dc it likely is. The risk is you start mainstream and he struggles it would then be upto school to support a move to Sen school this can be a lot harder as a transfer. I would visit all schools you are considering meet with head/senco and ask how they will meet your child's needs. Mainstream schools are often challenging places for asd kids due to noise/business/expectation. Really consider the reality of your child managing this day in day out before you commit.

I work in an SEN school and have also previously worked on mainstream.
half the kids in my Sen school are so settled and happy- you’d have no idea that they had ASD or any other needs. Genuinely. However the ones who have transferred from mainstream couldn’t cope there and presented very different in what was the wrong setting for them.
also, be wary of any promise of 1-1 help. Budgets are stretched so tight, they’ll more often than not be used as a general TA within the class. It’s really hard times in education at the minute

You sound like an amazing teacher.

The difficulty is though as your DS has done so well in mainstream, you may well find the LA is unwilling to agree to a specialist placement for secondary. You don't get one just because you want it, unfortunately.

If he's "thriving" in a mainstream setting as you say, there's not a hope in hell of getting a specialist placement. You have to demonstrate that your child is failing in mainstream to be considered for a specialist provision. And that's why it's such a good idea to start out with specialist provisions if you think your child is going to need it anyway. Not all specialist provisions are the same, and some cater to children with fewer challenges than others.

In our county, they've closed all the specialist units attached to mainstream at secondary level - they did that years ago. They're still available for primary, but what is happening here is that all the children flourishing in the special units then reach secondary transition and there's nowhere to go. Our LA are refusing special school placements for most, as there's simply not the spaces, so most are being packed off to mainstream where they'll struggle and their parents will have to keep on fighting to get them out and into a specialist provision.

It's just bloody heartbreaking, honestly.

Being in a mainstream school does not always mean having a mainstream day. So many children are arriving at mainstream schools with significant additional needs that some schools create a kind of specialist provision area and place children with the highest additional needs there. They will do their best to move children into the main classroom where possible (limited timetable for example) but some children simply cannot access a mainstream classroom at all, pushing such children into one does them no favours.

* My knowledge extends only to infant and primary schools local to me, perhaps your local environment is better *

Councils nationwide have no spare money and additional needs are inadequately funded - moving at a later date may well be an impossible task.

The don't give out specialist provision on a whim, if he's being offered it they must think he needs it. Having had an ASD child in a mainstream primary I'd say grab it if you're being offered. We didn't get the specialist provision he needed until secondary and it was a rough road.

It depends a lot on the needs of your child. I work in mainstream- we have autistic kids with a range of needs. The high needs ones we have would be so much better off in special school where there are the facilities and expertise they need- mainstream schools try hard but just aren’t set up to provide what some children need- specialist provision is built completely around meeting those needs. It matters less in early years as the learning is play based and the gaps less wide. As the children move up through the school the learning, social and language gaps become wider and the high needs child becomes more and more isolated from their peers as their needs and learning are on such different tracks. We have currently a couple of EHCP high need children who have hit year 1 / 2, parents have started to understand that special school would be a much better provision for their child but there are no spaces and now stuck on waiting lists.
please don’t just think about how your child will fit next year going into reception - think what will school like look for them in 2, 3, 5 years as well.
the professionals are professionals for a reason , they are trained and highly experienced in working with kids in both settings- they usually know what they’re talking about.
Finally school budgets are basically fucked with spending cuts across the board including in SEN. Most schools can no longer afford to give EHCP kids full time 1:1- often 1:2 or 3 etc.

IME I'd bite the hand off of anyone offering a SEN provision. My son managed fine in nursery and mainstream primary, up until Year 5. I'd been on at his mainstream school from reception until the day he left as I knew he was masking but they were sure he wasn't. He struggled, every single day with no support because he was undiagnosed and 'fine' at school. I was lied to numerous times about his academic ability until I was finally told he was about 3 years behind ( I had previously always been told he was achieving as he should be ) and the mainstream system in general let him down massively. He's now at a SEN secondary and is thriving (there are still social issues but they're much more helpful at dealing with them).
I found mainstream to be very dismissive of any issues I could see and feel like they didn't want to acknowledge them because it meant more work.

I'm in secondary, so a little different, but I know that we don't have enough support staff to enact most ehcp provision. Worth considering... If it were me, I would go specialist.

I currently have two children who are in my mainstream primary setting, who are awaiting specialist provision. The local authority have agreed that we are unable to continue to meet need, parents are desperate for specialist provision, but they are still waiting. One has ASD and has become so distressed he is not attending school at all, he hasn't been in since the summer. The other, also with ASD comes in every day but spends pretty much all his time just with his 1:1 as he can't cope in the classroom. Both have been waiting almost a year and are no nearer finding a specialist placement than they were last Easter. One is year 4, the other year 2. Both parents desperately wish they had gone with specialist provision from the outset. Just be VERY sure that your child will cope and more importantly, thrive.