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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Anybody else just think patriotism is bollocks?

335 replies

Changeyncchange · 22/11/2022 14:23

World cup got me thinking. I just feel no affinity to England as a concept. I was raised by 2nd gen immigrants who supported their parents international teams and the background of most of the kids at my school were similar so we didn't really get into it there.

Neither do I have no affinity to my grandparents country having not been since I was a child, I know many people from that country and immigration is still common but neither they nor I see us as sharing a nationality.

I just don't see the point. I think my own example shows how arbitrary and meaningless the whole concept of nationality and patronism is.

I'm interested to know if this is a quirk of my heritage or do others with different, more "English", backgrounds feel similar.

OP posts:
derxa · 22/11/2022 17:24

I'm wondering how this conversation would go down in France or Italy 😆

TheLeadbetterLife · 22/11/2022 17:24

MarshaBradyo · 22/11/2022 17:18

Obviously it’s their interpretation of British values and it means something to them, even if not everyone.

So no I wouldn’t say it’s nonsense.

If everybody gets to define Britishness as they please it's even more meaningless, surely?

If someone is going to claim e.g. "fairness" as a British value, they then need to go on to define fairness and show how it uniquely manifests in the British.

Otherwise I call bullshit.

Whatsshecalled · 22/11/2022 17:24

I am British going back as far as anyone has bothered to trace. My worry about patriotism is it makes people see other nations as different in some way and their own country as inherently better for some reason. I might be jaded though as i live in Cornwall and some Cornish are so vocal about Cornwall being amazing and anyone from elsewhere being an outsider that I absolutely despair about why we have to narrow ourselves down eg "Im not European Im British....Im not British Im English....Im not English Im Cornish...Im not from whatever town I'm from whatever village" Why????? It makes no sense, we're all people.

MissHavishamsMouldyOldCake · 22/11/2022 17:25

I don't trust people who are not patriotic

That's got such a sinister ring to it.

MarshaBradyo · 22/11/2022 17:27

TheLeadbetterLife · 22/11/2022 17:24

If everybody gets to define Britishness as they please it's even more meaningless, surely?

If someone is going to claim e.g. "fairness" as a British value, they then need to go on to define fairness and show how it uniquely manifests in the British.

Otherwise I call bullshit.

No it’s not it’s just their interpretation and that’s fine.

If you did some focus groups you’d probably get overlap with some themes emerging.

People would get some consensus - apart from the outraged one in the corner who says this is BS and leaves (or stays for a voucher and is annoyed after)

Changeyncchange · 22/11/2022 17:28

thehorsehasnowbolted · 22/11/2022 17:23

I don't trust people who are not patriotic

Your background is tainting your view OP

Yikes.

Well my grandparents and parents were patriotic. Just not to the country they lived in. Is that better or worse?

OP posts:
Changeyncchange · 22/11/2022 17:29

derxa · 22/11/2022 17:24

I'm wondering how this conversation would go down in France or Italy 😆

How would it? Are they particular patriotic countries?

OP posts:
Underanothersky · 22/11/2022 17:29

thehorsehasnowbolted · 22/11/2022 17:23

I don't trust people who are not patriotic

Your background is tainting your view OP

I'm off to become a spy, clearly.

thehorsehasnowbolted · 22/11/2022 17:31

Well my grandparents and parents were patriotic. Just not to the country they lived in

So it's not bollocks then

derxa · 22/11/2022 17:31

Changeyncchange · 22/11/2022 17:29

How would it? Are they particular patriotic countries?

Have you ever spent any time in France OP? 😂

GreyhairedHobbit · 22/11/2022 17:32

Pythonese · 22/11/2022 15:01

Me too.

This is how I feel too. I am married to an Irish man, my great grandmother was German but I can trace my English ancestors back to the 1500s. I love the history and heritage of our country

Underanothersky · 22/11/2022 17:32

thehorsehasnowbolted · 22/11/2022 17:31

Well my grandparents and parents were patriotic. Just not to the country they lived in

So it's not bollocks then

It is possible to disagree with your relatives you know.

FluffletheMeow · 22/11/2022 17:32

samyeagar · 22/11/2022 17:16

Not innate in the strict sense, rather in the sense that where we are born and how we are raised is pure chance and is something we have no control over, so in the broad sense it is a difference without distinction.

I think you are saying - more or less - that is not valid to be proud of nationality as it is not something you have personally achieved.

And I do have some sympathy for this viewpoint. But:

  1. it is sad to be that restrictive over one's pride because it makes people happy.

Say you have large, beautiful blue eyes. This is luck. It is still nice to appreciate and be proud of them.

  1. You are born into a country and that is luck, but you contribute to it and that is not. I have contributed for 30 something years now. Ours achievements such as they pur have been achieved as a group. But I am proud of us, me included.
TheLeadbetterLife · 22/11/2022 17:33

Changeyncchange · 22/11/2022 16:57

Our identity, if you will

Yeah this is probably another reason I dislike it.

I'm not a fan of "identity" as this conceptually inexplicable innate thing we all have.

Me neither. Everyone is so bloody obsessed with identity at the moment, desperate to define themselves in relation to everyone else.

The irony being that it just makes us all sound the same.

Changeyncchange · 22/11/2022 17:33

derxa · 22/11/2022 17:31

Have you ever spent any time in France OP? 😂

Only as a child.

I'm presuming they are quite patriotic from your tone. Perhaps aggressively so? Doesn't sound nice.

OP posts:
JoonT · 22/11/2022 17:34

No, I don’t. My identity means a lot to me. I have traced my mother’s line back to 1380. It fizzles out there (in Kent), but given my DNA results, I’m pretty sure it goes right back to some Danish or Saxon settler in the 500s. On my dad’s side, I have got back to the 1500s, though again, I’m sure it goes back further. I also have Scottish and Irish ancestors, so consider myself both English and British, (British in the broadest sense, i.e from the British isles). Human beings need roots. We need a sense of identity and belonging.

People who diss patriotism (and this isn’t a dig at you OP) are usually tedious poseurs. They think it makes them urbane and sophisticated to hate their own country. It doesn’t. It just shows how small-minded and easily led they are. They are just as tedious and small-minded as a flag-waving nationalist and xenophobe. Intelligent people are usually mildly patriotic, with a quiet affection for the best things about their country, but interested in other cultures and hostile to nationalism and xenophobia.

My patriotism is bound up mainly with literature. To me, England means Chaucer, Shakespeare, Donne, Spenser, Milton, Blake, Wordsworth, Shelley, Byron, Keats, Dickens, the Brontes, DH Lawrence, Woolf, Larkin, etc, etc. I also love the way our literature is woven into the landscape (the Brontes mean the Yorkshire moors, Chaucer means Kent in the Spring, Jane Austen means Bath, Dickens means London, Wordsworth means the Lake District, and so on). But it is also bound up with the tragedy and sacrifice of the two wars. Both my grandfathers fought in WW2, and I have the letters my great grandfather wrote home from the trenches in WW1. As a child in the 1980s, I watched WW1 veterans parading on Remembrance Sunday. And I remember my grandmother crying during the minute silence. All of this is a part of me. I don’t care what a sneering Guardian-reader thinks. I’m not looking for their permission to be patriotic.

I would just add that any immigrant who wants to claim that history and culture for themselves is welcome to do so. If you are born here, the literature and history and landscape is a part of you. Identity can be complex and multi-layered. It’s rarely black and white. You can be both English AND British AND and European AND Pakistani (or Japanese or Australian, or whatever).

FluffletheMeow · 22/11/2022 17:34

Yes! 😆

Changeyncchange · 22/11/2022 17:35

thehorsehasnowbolted · 22/11/2022 17:31

Well my grandparents and parents were patriotic. Just not to the country they lived in

So it's not bollocks then

What the fuck? How did you get thay from what I said?

My grandparents were also pretty racist. Do you think I think racism is good???!

OP posts:
FluffletheMeow · 22/11/2022 17:35

FluffletheMeow · 22/11/2022 17:34

Yes! 😆

Sorry yes France and Italy are patriotic.

MarshaBradyo · 22/11/2022 17:37

JoonT · 22/11/2022 17:34

No, I don’t. My identity means a lot to me. I have traced my mother’s line back to 1380. It fizzles out there (in Kent), but given my DNA results, I’m pretty sure it goes right back to some Danish or Saxon settler in the 500s. On my dad’s side, I have got back to the 1500s, though again, I’m sure it goes back further. I also have Scottish and Irish ancestors, so consider myself both English and British, (British in the broadest sense, i.e from the British isles). Human beings need roots. We need a sense of identity and belonging.

People who diss patriotism (and this isn’t a dig at you OP) are usually tedious poseurs. They think it makes them urbane and sophisticated to hate their own country. It doesn’t. It just shows how small-minded and easily led they are. They are just as tedious and small-minded as a flag-waving nationalist and xenophobe. Intelligent people are usually mildly patriotic, with a quiet affection for the best things about their country, but interested in other cultures and hostile to nationalism and xenophobia.

My patriotism is bound up mainly with literature. To me, England means Chaucer, Shakespeare, Donne, Spenser, Milton, Blake, Wordsworth, Shelley, Byron, Keats, Dickens, the Brontes, DH Lawrence, Woolf, Larkin, etc, etc. I also love the way our literature is woven into the landscape (the Brontes mean the Yorkshire moors, Chaucer means Kent in the Spring, Jane Austen means Bath, Dickens means London, Wordsworth means the Lake District, and so on). But it is also bound up with the tragedy and sacrifice of the two wars. Both my grandfathers fought in WW2, and I have the letters my great grandfather wrote home from the trenches in WW1. As a child in the 1980s, I watched WW1 veterans parading on Remembrance Sunday. And I remember my grandmother crying during the minute silence. All of this is a part of me. I don’t care what a sneering Guardian-reader thinks. I’m not looking for their permission to be patriotic.

I would just add that any immigrant who wants to claim that history and culture for themselves is welcome to do so. If you are born here, the literature and history and landscape is a part of you. Identity can be complex and multi-layered. It’s rarely black and white. You can be both English AND British AND and European AND Pakistani (or Japanese or Australian, or whatever).

Good post. I agree it is multi layered and open to people joining

samyeagar · 22/11/2022 17:39

Whatsshecalled · 22/11/2022 17:24

I am British going back as far as anyone has bothered to trace. My worry about patriotism is it makes people see other nations as different in some way and their own country as inherently better for some reason. I might be jaded though as i live in Cornwall and some Cornish are so vocal about Cornwall being amazing and anyone from elsewhere being an outsider that I absolutely despair about why we have to narrow ourselves down eg "Im not European Im British....Im not British Im English....Im not English Im Cornish...Im not from whatever town I'm from whatever village" Why????? It makes no sense, we're all people.

Cultural Superiority is certainly a real thing. Hell, much of the opposition to holding the World Cup in Qatar is based in cultural superiority

TheLeadbetterLife · 22/11/2022 17:39

Most countries are patriotic, it's part and parcel of keeping the concept of a nation alive. And yes, some countries are more explicit about it than others - France is a good example.

The implication however that people in France wouldn't have this conversation is just as daft as the idea that all Brits are fair-minded queuers though. i.e. bollocks.

derxa · 22/11/2022 17:42

My grandparents were also pretty racist. Do you think I think racism is good???! And there we have it. I'm out

samyeagar · 22/11/2022 17:44

FluffletheMeow · 22/11/2022 17:32

I think you are saying - more or less - that is not valid to be proud of nationality as it is not something you have personally achieved.

And I do have some sympathy for this viewpoint. But:

  1. it is sad to be that restrictive over one's pride because it makes people happy.

Say you have large, beautiful blue eyes. This is luck. It is still nice to appreciate and be proud of them.

  1. You are born into a country and that is luck, but you contribute to it and that is not. I have contributed for 30 something years now. Ours achievements such as they pur have been achieved as a group. But I am proud of us, me included.

Actually, I am saying quite the opposite. I am saying that pride in one's country is no different than anything else people take pride in. Since taking pride in something, anything, is individually based, to think that taking pride in one particular thing is bollocks suggests that taking pride in anything is also bollocks.

TheLeadbetterLife · 22/11/2022 17:46

samyeagar · 22/11/2022 17:44

Actually, I am saying quite the opposite. I am saying that pride in one's country is no different than anything else people take pride in. Since taking pride in something, anything, is individually based, to think that taking pride in one particular thing is bollocks suggests that taking pride in anything is also bollocks.

Well unless it's something you've personally achieved or been involved in, it probably is bollocks.

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