Anybody else just think patriotism is bollocks?

[Changeyncchange]

World cup got me thinking. I just feel no affinity to England as a concept. I was raised by 2nd gen immigrants who supported their parents international teams and the background of most of the kids at my school were similar so we didn't really get into it there.

Neither do I have no affinity to my grandparents country having not been since I was a child, I know many people from that country and immigration is still common but neither they nor I see us as sharing a nationality.

I just don't see the point. I think my own example shows how arbitrary and meaningless the whole concept of nationality and patronism is.

I'm interested to know if this is a quirk of my heritage or do others with different, more "English", backgrounds feel similar.

I agree with op.
Of course countries are real, but you can want to defend your country against Russian missiles while stil knowing you could have be raised in another country and spoken another language.

I'm not ukrainian in case I made it seem like I were

My grandparents were also pretty racist. Do you think I think racism is good???!

So now you are equating patriotism with racism OP? Why?

Your way of thinking appears to be quite muddled. I wonder what's the reason for that

Why? Because you couldn't be arsed reading the context of my quote?

Says more about you babe.

I'm proud to be both Scottish and British.

No, I don't think it's bollocks. Like any kind of love, it can be toxic, but it doesn't have to be. It basically maps on to love of place, and love of community.

In my experience people who don't have it at all often do have other, similar attachments, where they see themselves as part of a kind of tribe. Politics, for example.

Nope.

You're the muddled one.

I said my grandparents were patriotic. You then made the frankly bizarre leap that therefore I didn't think patriotism was bollocks.

I was baffled by this and assumed you were under the misguided opinion that because my grandparents held that view I agreed with it.

I wad pointing out that my grandparents (like many others of their culture and time) were racist. Something I think we generally agree is wrong. Therefore just because one's grandparents think something doesn't mean we do.

Hope that helps.

Obviously there can be nasty aspects to patriotism, but I don't think it's all bad. We all need to feel we belong to a group. If a child from your kid's school was in the Olympics, it would be natural for you to root for them. If your sibling got a big promotion you'd be proud of them etc. Even though those achievements have nothing to do with you - you didn't put in the work.

Also say you spend a lot of time in another country you may suddenly see a general set of cultural things that makes where you are from different, and makes it 'yours'. Or you may realise you don't really fit in where you come from. Going away always makes me glad to come home. And it's not about home being superior, it's about it being mine.

Having said all that, countries are funny things and cultural characteristics don't mp neatly on to them, but there are patterns. But you only have to look at the shifting borders of Central Europe over the years to see what a changing concept 'here and these people =<country>' is.

What is there to be proud of?

That your ancestors have created this wonderful place and raised the marvellous fellow people you live amongst today. That's loads to be proud of, I think

They didn't though. I'm a 3rd gen immigrant.

I've lived in 7 different countries, my daughter went to 5 different schools, all of them included some sort patriotism within their national curriculum.
DD understood and accepted it just fine, so why wouldn't foreign students in Britain be able to do the same?

Interesting. Do people on this thread who don’t feel anything for a country feel this way about another tribe eg a political view?

They didn't though. I'm a 3rd gen immigrant.

Well, that's your justification to not feeling patriotic towards the UK. And that's fine

Do you also feel 'othered'? Because on this thread it sounds as if you are 'othering' yourself

Why are you ignoring all the other people on this thread who say they feel the same way as the OP and are English (or whatever nationality) going back many generations?

I'm very patriotic. I love the culture and landscape of England particularly.

I'm not a hot climate person - don't like heatwaves, so I even like the rain, mist and snow! It all goes hand in hand with the greenness of the countryside. I love the music of Vaughan Williams, Elgar, Finzi and Purcell and the English tradition of choral music - also writers such as Shakespeare, Hardy, Dickens, Wordsworth and Larkin to name just a few. I'm totally fascinated by history.
I'm also interested in the culture of other countries - especially that of Ireland, Italy and France and don't feel that my native land is superior - but that's where my affection lies.

I'm sorry you have no feelings like this, OP. You are missing a lot.

Not at all. I feel perfectly entitled to be here and perfectly at home here (in the UK that is). I just don't understand patriotism. I presume I don't have any.

How am I othering myself in the thread? Lots of people agree with me including people who have English heritage.

I think the PP who mentioned Ukraine and whether it was wrong for them to feel patriotic was spot on

The types who hail anti-patriotism are often the types who have been quick to put a Ukrainian flag outside their homes, been very vocal about the issue, etc

How do you reconcile both ideas? Your brains must be short-circuiting

This makes non sense. I like a lot of those things too so how am I missing out?

Why are you ignoring all the other people on this thread who say they feel the same way as the OP and are English (or whatever nationality) going back many generations?

I'm not ignoring them. I just can't find a justification for how they feel

I do wonder how many people talking about British values know what they are without googling tbh.

Funnily enough, this is one of the reasons I see patriotism as kind of nonsense. I understand where it comes from, but that doesn't make it any less irrational.

I have, in the past, gone through very patriotic phases, or political phases, or joined other "tribes" of one stripe or another. Once whatever interest it happened to be passed, it always seemed a bit silly in hindsight.

But it's also a bit scary, how easily it can overtake your brain - this is how tribalism can be manipulated, and why I'm wary of it. It's based on such ephemeral ideas that can be turned sour so quickly.

What was spot on about Ukraine?

Your brain is short circuiting if you think your post makes a coherent point.

But that’s conflating different things. I’ve lived in a number of different countries. I’m very interested in learning languages, and learning about different histories and collieries, but that doesn’t mean I have to feel attachment to any one in particular that goes deeper than say, liking the weather or landscape, or having a preference for a political system.

I like the fact that I can feel at ‘home’, be happy and flourish, in a number of different places. I don’t feel like I’m missing out at all.

Why does someone have to be patriotic to like Dickens and rainy weather?

Which suggests it requires justifying. It doesn’t. You can feel however you like, same as we all can.