Anybody else just think patriotism is bollocks?

[Changeyncchange]

World cup got me thinking. I just feel no affinity to England as a concept. I was raised by 2nd gen immigrants who supported their parents international teams and the background of most of the kids at my school were similar so we didn't really get into it there.

Neither do I have no affinity to my grandparents country having not been since I was a child, I know many people from that country and immigration is still common but neither they nor I see us as sharing a nationality.

I just don't see the point. I think my own example shows how arbitrary and meaningless the whole concept of nationality and patronism is.

I'm interested to know if this is a quirk of my heritage or do others with different, more "English", backgrounds feel similar.

Why do you think other nations don’t have these debates?

Why don't you try going to any of these places and attempt what I've suggested?

You can say whatever you want. Who told you you should be ashamed to be British? Can you quote it? Or will it be a case of you deliberately snipping out context like you did with my quote?

Chocchops72 · Today 17:01
The landscape of Scotland is in my bones, I feel a part of it and it is part of me.

I totally get it, Chocchops. I feel that way about the British Isles in general, but for me, England in particular. I tend to think of Scotland as being stunningly beautiful with spectacular scenery and England more modest and cosy with little woods, villages and market towns (obviously cities as well...but i'm talking about he landscape).

I accept most people don't think like me (or you!) any more - we are becoming a more urban population, less connected either through work, leisure or culturally with the landscape but it still means a huge amount to me. If you feel that visceral connection it's a very real, tangible emotion and while I accept that many people don't, they need to believe that it's very important to some of us.

For me, real patriotism isn't about putting down other countries/cultures - it's exactly as you have said - a feeling in your bones towards your own country, and a completely benign emotion. Patriotism should and can connect us to other people - our compatriots and also other nations too. I remember being really moved by the Kalush Orchestra and their feeling for their country when they sang for Ukraine at the last Eurovision (not a regular viewer, but that was a very moving contest).

Who told you you should be ashamed to be British? Can you quote it?

Yes, I have quoted it below. Am I allowed to be patriotic now?

Our ancestors have also done a lot of terrible stuff. Where does that fit into this rhetoric? Or do we just ignore the bits we don't like?

Do you think you’re being somehow progressive in attaching one viewpoint to all Asians, Africans and Māori, and claiming that they would all be so completely intolerant to nuanced views about patriotism that they would subject me to an unspecified “worse” punishment than deportation?

What a stupid fucking question.

I presume you poorly made point is "the Moaris" wouldn't be happy as you presume all Moaris feel the same. Even if this were true and they all reacted negatively.

So what? What's your point?

I’m not sure where the idea that it’s only Brits that are ashamed to be patriotic came from, or that they’re even ashamed at all. It’s not unusual to see British or English flags flying, and there’s hardly a dearth of them over in Qatar right now. You can also find people in most, if not all, countries that aren’t patriotic and find the whole concept weird.

That doesn't say that.

Did you copy/paste the wrong thing or do you struggle with reading comprehension?

thehorsehasnowbolted · Today 19:03
Our ancestors have also done a lot of terrible stuff. Where does that fit into this rhetoric? Or do we just ignore the bits we don't like?
I decide to focus on the positives. If they hadn't been so incredibly intelligent, ingenious, tenacious, courageous, cohesive and brave, our country would be a lot different to what it is today. I value enormously what we can enjoy here today. Many others can't

Well put!

We (and many other countries) have so much to be proud of. It's not all bad - but to hear some people (esp on the left) you'd think it was.

I remember when my son's German exchange was staying and we were chatting about something and he said 'In Germany we are not patriotic - we have so much to be ashamed about' and I thought that was incredibly sad. I said he should take pride in his country's cultural achievements and not let it be defined by the Nazi era. I just can't imagine feeling indifferent about my native land.

Do you think you’re being somehow progressive in attaching one viewpoint to all Asians, Africans and Māori, and claiming that they would all be so completely intolerant to nuanced views about patriotism that they would subject me to an unspecified “worse” punishment than deportation?

Why don't you try it? You can attempt doing something of the sort in the USA also

I get this about my home, the eucalyptus, smell, sounds, bleached grass etc but also about London. The bridge over the river, the architecture, the institutions

I feel lucky to be so moved by it and to have experienced both. It’s entirely positive though with only good feelings to cultural differences in other countries

Why don't you go to Afghanistan or Russia and tell them about how amazing Britain is?

Is that convincing? Am I doing it right?

Yes, I'm British but still feel patriotism doesn't align with anything that really speaks to me. I wonder if those who feel it most are those who benefit most from the prevailing culture - generally white males and/or the older generation. Anyone who feels "Britain" did something for them.

Do you think I don’t know people from other countries or cultures? What makes you think I haven’t already had these conversations?

I don’t live in the U.K. Several people on this thread come from non-UK cultures and you’ve ignored or misunderstood everything they’ve said.

As has been brought to the forefront and exemplified in bold neon by the Qatar World Cup...there are an awful lot of people who benefit from their prevailing "British" culture beyond old white guys.

That's not what I said though is it.

It's Bollocks

🤣 and you don't sound foolish and defensive about your asinine and simplistic OP - not at all!

This 'if there were no nations there would be no wars' crap is the sort of stuff I expect from a bunch of teenagers.

Why don't you go to Afghanistan or Russia and tell them about how amazing Britain is?

I wouldn't dream to do that, because that's incredibly insulting, ridiculous and akin to what you are doing here!

Also you are being cowardly. You are being very vociferous online towards the British. You feel quite progressive and reactionary right?

Why don't you go to New Zealand, the Navajo Nation, Afganistan (which you mentioned) and tell them to their face that tribalism is b**cks (which you also said in your OP), that the attachment they feel is silly, that they should quit their culture and traditions, etc. You need to do that if you want to be taken seriously -then watch the situation unfold

More ridiculous and insulting than when you attributed one viewpoint on this debate to two entire continents? And are still insisting that all people in select other countries (why have you picked those ones, out of interest?) are unwaveringly patriotic and utterly intolerant of any contrary opinion?

This is like debating with my mum, when she assumes she knows what my point is based on something she’s picked up on Facebook about “Guardian readers”, and she argues with the imagined point instead of what I’ve actually said.

I don’t read the Guardian, but the facts never seem to matter.

Responding to a point I haven't made makes you look super clever. Is strawmanning a British value?

You won't even follow your own logic, let alone our human logic.

You're the cowardly one who won't go and tell the Russains how great the British are. Call yourself a patriot? Your ancestors would be shamed of you.

Also the victim complex on these people!!

the attachment they feel is silly, that they should quit their culture and traditions

Never mind that nobody said that.

Or the one earlier insisting they were told they had to be ashamed to be British and then backed it up with a quote that said nothing of the sort.

It's all very interesting from a psychological point of view. What makes them invent these things? Projection? A subconscious sense they should be ashamed?

Ah who knows. Passes the time getting into a bit of a ding dong though. I’m sick in bed and it’s been a fun distraction.

I’m also from the Marches, btw, ironically enough…

Why is this in AIBU? You can feel however you want to feel but when people are telling you you're unreasonable in their opinion, you're aggressively telling them that you're not.

Don't post in AIBU if you're not actually interested in hearing other views.