Anybody else just think patriotism is bollocks?

[Changeyncchange]

World cup got me thinking. I just feel no affinity to England as a concept. I was raised by 2nd gen immigrants who supported their parents international teams and the background of most of the kids at my school were similar so we didn't really get into it there.

Neither do I have no affinity to my grandparents country having not been since I was a child, I know many people from that country and immigration is still common but neither they nor I see us as sharing a nationality.

I just don't see the point. I think my own example shows how arbitrary and meaningless the whole concept of nationality and patronism is.

I'm interested to know if this is a quirk of my heritage or do others with different, more "English", backgrounds feel similar.

Feel how you want to feel. My DNA is 92% Irish and even though there are aspects of my country I dislike, overall I'm really proud of Ireland and what it's achieved. It would be odd if I didn't. My ancestors lived here before the time of Christ, so it's in my bones. Equally, someone who's just immigrated to Ireland also has a right to feel proud and that they belong, just as much as I do. I have no idea how a British person feels about being British, but I know how I feel about being Irish.

@Changeyncchange

YANBU to feel that yourself, but you would be unreasonable to think everyone should feel the same. Also, it is annoying that SOME people claim if you're patriotic (in England especially,) that you're automatically a bigot/racist/gammon.

ANY OTHER COUNTRY can be patriotic and it's OK. But the English get bashed! Even down to the English flag; you're a flag shagger and a thick racist if you fly the English flag, yet no-one else is accused of this, if they fly THEIR flag, not even Wales or Scotland.

I feel, or should that be don't feel , the same.

No patriotism towards my home country either. Where I'm from or where I live now is something that just is. Like I have brown hair ,brown eyes etc. Nothing to feel proud of or ashamed of or was lyrical about.I don't particularly get it, but on an intellectual level I understand it's about belonging and a "feel good " feel. The latter is rather artificial in my eyes and can feel a bit forced.

There's a really big difference in being proud to be British and thinking you're superior cause you're British. Seems these days it's not fashionable to be patriotic and in fact, self hatred is the norm. Nothing wrong with being proud to be British, we're a great country, but there are also many other great counties in the world.

Seems being patriotic is now synonymous with being a far right, brexiteer. It's all a bit worrying and pathetic.

as much as you clearly want to envision the poor English as victims, indeed the only victims, of disdain if they dare indulge in flag shagging, it isn’t remotely true. No one is stopping the English flying a flag if they want to, clearly. Nor is it only English citizens that side-eye overt patriotism in their home countries.

Utter rot.

of course. As someone who is neither patriotic nor English, and has seen the same arguments play out in more than one other country and in at least two other languages, I am in fact a unicorn.

slap my ass and call me Pegasus I suppose.

slap my ass and call me Pegasus I suppose.

I'll join you in that.

Yeh it does seem to come up a lot and agree generally

It's all a bit worrying and pathetic.

I only see this on MN and the Guardian type 'media'. Otherwise people seem fine with it

Seems you forgot Northern Ireland there.....🤔

Depends what you mean by “patriotism” I guess.

Blind loyalty to you country whatever it does - even if it turns into a fascist state, come what may - I don’t agree with. That’s unthinking loyalty and I don’t agree with that.

Wanting the best for your country and all the people who live in it - I’m on board with. Even though we should really be caring equally for everyone in the world, it’s easier to work towards improving your own country that the whole whole.

Agreeing with the values your country happens to have, whether it be democracy, diversity etc or the opposite end of the scale (if that’s your genuine belief, however misguided) I’d probably just call that agreement rather than patriotism.

Personally, there are things I like about Britain and things I don’t (I see myself as British rather than English, as heritage is mixed British and other countries), and things I don’t.

I want the best for the country as I see it.

I wouldn’t call myself patriotic as such.

Perhaps having immigrant ancestors make you not patriotic? In fact, I find other nationalitoes to be far more patriotic and proud of their countries than British overall.

You may not feel this way but the fact that most people on this planet feel proud of the country they belong to proves that feeling patriotism is normal. People love their countries for familiarity and for intangible reasons, it's not based on logics. Like people love their families, and would have unconscious bias in favour of their family.

@Changeyncchange and where exactly are you getting this idea a "good majority of the Northern Irish think they are occupied" from?!

Additionally, it looks to me that you've not considered carefully enough the crucial difference between patriotism and nationalism.

"Nationalism is based on the belief that one's nation is superior to others, while patriotism is based on one's love and devotion to country."

While the two can go hand in hand, it is Nationalism that is the true root of conflict since its either presented as being about taking over or expelling an other. It can be both as in the case of Provisional Sinn Féin and Provisional IRA, for example. They actually regarded themselves as the only true legitimate government of the entire island of Ireland all along.

Patriotism recognises the destruction and death that conflict brings. Nationalism ignores or justifies it as "you made us do it!" which Hume asserted is the hallmark of the fascist. Hence why John Hume was a patriot, but Martin McGuinness was NOT.

You may well agree with Hume's statement that "you can't eat a flag" - in other words, nationalistic feelings won't clothe or feed the people. He preferred job creation and education which are patriotic endeavours aiming at bettering the people and the country.

There is a difference between patriotism and nationalism. Orwell wrote about it too.

You may not feel this way but the fact that most people on this planet feel proud of the country they belong to proves that feeling patriotism is normal.

Sorry but that doesn't seem to be true. A poll showing roughly 50/50 would suggest otherwise.

Patriotism in the UK is also declining year on year.

yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2015/07/14/decline-british-patriotism

I love this country but am no patriot.

The UK is in the top 10 but nothing to write home about.

worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/most-patriotic-countries

ANY OTHER COUNTRY can be patriotic and it's OK. But the English get bashed! Even down to the English flag; you're a flag shagger and a thick racist if you fly the English flag, yet no-one else is accused of this, if they fly THEIR flag, not even Wales or Scotland

People keep saying this and completely ignoring the fact that I and other poster have said we feel the same way about all patriotism. Indeed one Scottish poster specifically spoke about their dislike of this kind of thing in Scotland.

It's really odd.

8 billion people in the world, and every single person that’s ever been criticised for patriotism has been English. Anyone that isn’t English that says they’re not patriotic either doesn’t exist, or is lying in order to cover up the great conspiracy to victimise the patriotic English that we’re all apparently in on.

In reality, these exact same arguments play out in plenty of other countries. Maybe even all of them. Even down to the hyperbolic claims that ‘it’s fine for everyone else but not us’. Can personally vouch for hearing that one from at least four other nationalities. Complaining about not being allowed to be patriotic whilst waving their flags.

😂

Mn tends to throw up more anti U.K. posts, people are reacting to that.

The conversation over whether any patriotism is ok is more balanced but when it reaches the idea if everyone was completely indifferent re patriotism we wouldn’t have wars it seems far fetched and utopian.

Human qualities of protecting and defending a space aren’t new, animals engage in it. So it’s a bit like saying if we got rid of other human qualities we’d all be happy.

If people didn’t post to just say this tiny island blah blah and did it on every country level that’d be better

As has been brought to the forefront and exemplified in bold neon by the Qatar World Cup...there are an awful lot of people who benefit from their prevailing "British" culture beyond old white guys.

@samyeagar agreed, they were just one example.

Don’t know so much, might want to ask the Americans on that one. Got a worse reputation around these parts than mother in laws.

the mn userbase is predominantly British, so it’s no surprise it’s uk-centric. Go to a predominantly German, Russian, American etc site and it plays out the same on those. I’m Serbian by birth, and half by blood. Believe me, if I had to envision eternal torment it would be having to sit there and listen to how it’s Serbs and Serbs alone that are picked on for patriotism. As if I haven’t already heard enough of that one for a lifetime.

It could be a good debate though - in a classroom

Are countries a good idea or whatever

On one side you could argue that they allow humans who can be territorial (like other animals) the ability to exist in populous places without breaking out over most things due to common ground. Then cheering your country’s football team can be a relatively benign way to express emotion for that collective idea.

Others might take the other side and say wars wouldn’t happen etc as has been said already and other arguments

Born and bred in the UK - family British going back generations, and I still don't have a sense of patriotism.

I like aspects of our country, I like a decent proportion of the people in it, but I can't imagine I'd feel differently about another country if I lived there.

I also have zero affinity for the class system or 'respect' for the monarchy, which seems to define patriotism in the UK. I just don't get it.

In the past the Union flag and St George’s flag have regrettably been hijacked and appropriated by extreme right wing racist groups like the National Front and the EDF. This is not the case with the Welsh or Scottish flags. I don’t think anyone could describe Plaid Cymru or the SNP as extreme right wing.

I’m Welsh and proud of it. My parents were from the same part of rural West Wales and I like to think the soil there is full of my DNA. I’m proud of my country’s language and culture having prevailed despite centuries of attempts to wipe it out. Yma o Hyd!