Anybody else just think patriotism is bollocks?

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World cup got me thinking. I just feel no affinity to England as a concept. I was raised by 2nd gen immigrants who supported their parents international teams and the background of most of the kids at my school were similar so we didn't really get into it there.

Neither do I have no affinity to my grandparents country having not been since I was a child, I know many people from that country and immigration is still common but neither they nor I see us as sharing a nationality.

I just don't see the point. I think my own example shows how arbitrary and meaningless the whole concept of nationality and patronism is.

I'm interested to know if this is a quirk of my heritage or do others with different, more "English", backgrounds feel similar.

I don't think anyone was claiming those things as uniquely British. Just that those are things that the British strive for.

Do we? I don't think we do particularly. They are just virtues that somebody has decided to say the British strive for, based on zero evidence I can see. In what way do we as a country demonstrate that we are striving for those things?

It depends what you mean by ‘we’ and who ‘we’ is.

I certainly strive for those things. My children are educated about fairness and tolerance. Laws are in place to stop many types of discrimination. I have legal rights being in a protected group. My DC are mixed race and they are in a different protected group. It’s not Utopia but it’s also not a bad start.

What being British means to people is a concept but it’s then seen in our laws and institutions.

It’s a broad topic but if you asked what people thought themes would likely emerge.

When people say they feel nothing and don’t get any of the above I can’t quite imagine it as it seems quite closed. But we are all different.

Fairness, tolerance, truth and justice are often touted as classic British traits. You hear it all the time. But history would suggest otherwise.

I certainly strive for those things.

But that's exactly the point. Claiming that the British as a nation collectively strive for those things is ridiculous. Britain is full of kind people, bigots, fair people, criminals, racists, altruistic heroes and everything in between, just as all countries are.

Would people rather take their chances living in Britain right now today, or say 50 years ago? 100 years ago? 500 years ago? I would say that pretty much every group would be better off today than at those times in the past.

Don't let perfect become the mortal enemy of good.

Like I say it depends who you count as ‘we’. And I hope you wouldn’t count the worst kind of people but rather people who actually make a difference. Not the people who sit in the pub and moan about immigration

If it helps, I don’t find only British patriotism irrational. I can’t think why you’ve drawn this conclusion.

We have gone from English patriotism to British patriotism, I think they’re 2 entirely different subject as well (though I’ve never in my life heard someone describe themselves as ‘British’)

You can love the country you live in without agreeing with all that happens in the country.

Britain is not a nation in my opinion but four.

In my case I am a walker and wild camper. Thanks to our access legislation I have spent time in the wildest and most beautiful parts of Scotland, miles from any people or roads. I feel part of that landscape and it feels part of me. I can admire the natural beauty of other countries when I visit, but Scotland is the landscape of my soul.

Our ancestors have also done a lot of terrible stuff. Where does that fit into this rhetoric? Or do we just ignore the bits we don't like?

I decide to focus on the positives. If they hadn't been so incredibly intelligent, ingenious, tenacious, courageous, cohesive and brave, our country would be a lot different to what it is today. I value enormously what we can enjoy here today. Many others can't

If one judges British History in the context of its contemporary time, much of it was comparatively forward thinking.

I don’t think you get to decide who is patriotic though. What if the people in the pub moaning about immigration think their version of patriotism is more legitimate, vote for things based on their version, then their elected representatives bring in changes to legislation that remove a key number of civil rights from everyone?

But it's also a bit scary, how easily it can overtake your brain - this is how tribalism can be manipulated, and why I'm wary of it

Do you also believe 'tribalism' in other parts of the world is pointless and should be sneered at? How about Africa or Asia? Are they wrong to feel part of a tribe, honour their traditions, land and ancestors?

This is baffling to me. If you cut out half of it what's the point? You're not proud of your ancestors, you're proud of fictionalised versions of them. They don't exist.

I’ve already said several times that yes, I think it’s daft everywhere.

I don’t know what kind of slam dunk you and others in this thread think this is. It comes across as very patronising the way some people talk about other nations, like they’re quaintly homogeneous and never debate these concepts.

Good point.

This always seems to be the comeback.

Would you say that about X people being patriotic?

My answer is always yes.

I understand it more if you're from a recently oppressed group. If you were told you should be ashamed of who you are it makes sense to hit back that you are proud of who you are when challenging this. There is a reason why alarm bells go off when we here about "white pride" though. These things aren't in a vacuum and I don't think there is a place once you have equality (which admittedly isn't easy to gauge).

So I suppose my question to all those proponents of "would you say that about <insert historically oppressed culture here>"? Is to turn it round the other way.

Would you say that Russian patriotism is good?

Don't get me wrong, us Brits have done many good things. But oppressing half the world at various points in history (and some very recent) can absolutely be taken in context of modern values.

Most notably the Kenyan cover up in the 50's. Very British. Or how about the justice for the Windrush generation. Even today we're sending people to Rwanda.

I'm proud of 'some' if our achievements but unwavering patriotism is for the dogs.

My answer is always yes

Would you go to New Zealand and tell the Maoris that their patriotism (or tribalism, as some have described it here) is naïve, an illusion or uncalled for? You would very swiftly be escorted out of the country or worse

If you were told you should be ashamed of who you are it makes sense to hit back that you are proud of who you are when challenging this

Well, I've been told on this thread by a PP that I should be ashamed to be British because of xyz,. Am I allowed to be patriotic and challenge it then?

Of course we have to take the good with the bad, but that is where things get kind of murky. We have no way of knowing how things would look today had different paths been taken, because all we have is the path that was actually taken.

So, looking back through history, we can certainly see things that in hindsight could have been approached differently, and may well have been had our ancestors had our wisdom of today. Things might have ended up better by current standards, or they could have ended up way worse. We have no way of knowing.

What we do know is where things are and where things were, and on the whole, I think things are much better now than they were in the past, which suggests that our ancestors got it right more than they got it wrong.

I always think patriotism is a bit like being part of a family, you can slag off your family members, but if anyone else dare do it, you suddenly get all defensive.

You think this opinion would result in deportation? And what would the worse thing be in this case?

again, why do you think other nations are incapable of introspective debate about the nature of tribalism? Why do you think other nations don’t have these debates?