David Badiel - Jews Don't Count. Shocked

[Everanewbie]

AIBU to be disappointed and upset at the blindspot for antisemitism that was highlighted in last night's excellent documentary? The Leigh Francis part was especially revealing to me. The (quite correct) groveling apologies for the Michael Jackson, Craig David and Mel B characters were a contrast to the defining silence on the David Badiel character.

What is more, the reaction from the left-wing commentators (Owen Jones, et al) on twitter seem to suggest that Badiel says other racism doesn't exist, which feels like a deliberate and willful misrepresentation.

I am polite because I focus on talking to the OP and some of the other folks on here that are starting to really get it. In that sense, the worst posters on here are just ramming the matter home - they are actually reinforcing to any fair minded person everything we are saying, and some of it is just not subtle.

The thing is, we need people who call it out, and we need them to understand - because anti-semitism can take a different form to other forms of racism (although it can also take the more standard abuse, physical assault etc forms as well) - in that sense the "monitise anti-semitism" was helpful - because it is just so blatent - but it is important that people understand that it is even more problematic than criticising a black anti-racist campaigner for monitising racism - because of the association of Jews with money (dating back to the requirement of the Church and feudal society that only Jews were allowed to lend and deal with money - dealing with money being below that of a good Christian) - it packs a double wammy. We need the good people to call it out, and they won't unless they are sensitised to the full implications of it.

Quite right. From just before sundown tonight until after nightfall tomorrow night I won't be on here (all phones and computers off, no turning on or off electricity etc etc). And I should be preparing now - Fridays are a very busy day getting ready when Shabbat starts so early.
That is another situation where only if you think about it can see the issues. In my local area, a few years ago, the local counsellors for my ward had every one of their surgery days on a Saturday. Some parts of the ward are quite Jewish, although other parts aren't. Did feel like a great way to say - we are not interested in your problems.

De-lurking again to say I am still really appreciating the intelligent discussion on this thread, and to thank the posters who have taken the time to explain theological and historical points.

Thanks @amcha for the recommendation of "the sunflower" I've ordered this.

As stated, previously.

My hatred for Baddiel & his actions and anger at some who are happy for him to have such a prominent role on this issue is documented & I feel it's his presence that's caused such pain & angst. In the last days I have seen some (not just on here) disregard Baddiel past and practically in the same breath would have whoopi & others commenting castigated for life branding them as people who will always hate.

But I'll say no more on that. I've no wish to rehash or add upset. There is some real & horrid anti-semitism on this thread.

I have stepped away from commenting about my feelings on this thread as it felt pointless, most didn't care or minimised, which was deeply distressing

but I have continued to read your & some others thoughful posts & continued to think on.

I must say there is some right horrors on this thread. Some blatant anti-Semites and some who just want to see insult where none intended.

This is a nuanced and hurtful situation for many.

Sometimes ignorance is abuse and sometimes it's just not knowing the facts. Some will deal with that with anger, some with patient explanation & some will remain silent thru exhaustion.

Who are any of us to pass judgment on how someone hurt reacts really.

Response in anger whilst understandable isn't helpful.

All in all a thought provoking read.

Im looking forward to reading this book.

I have heard of Simon Wiesenthal & hold him & his memory in the highest regard & his thoughtful words..
And the Centre named after him & his good work were first to offer empathy & condemn gyspophobia after the horror of Tatarszentgyorgy

I won't be commenting further.

Peace.
Good sabbath.

Poor dumb Jewish folk being led astray by those bad Zionists, eh?

I don't always agree with rivkh but to discard her views by labeling her an useful idiot, acting up because of her age (late 20s), acting against the community and even going as far as saying she ( a Jewish woman) is providing cover for antisemitism is disgusting. Shame on you.

I am GC so again don't often agree with her but you might as well have called her a "self hating Jew" as is often the case when many Jewish people speak out.

Actually, there are at least three other primary schools that are not state funded and are not haredi. Immanuel is the only secondary school though that I am aware of (that is not haredi), and it now also has a primary school - so that makes at least four primary schools. The majority are funded by the state, although the Jewish education funding has to come out of the voluntary contribution - the state only funds secular education.

Interesting. Are you speaking of places like menorah. I guess I am liberal so I consider places like menorah to be really religious (my SILs went to hasmonean).

The voluntary contribution doesn't need to be paid, my MIL never paid it for any of her 4 kids. This was for financial reasons but she did tell me there were people who went on overseas holidays and never paid it for their DC (and the school let it go).

Naima, Kerem, Nancy Reuben.
None of which could be considered Charedi (in all the above girls and boys are mixed, for a start). Menorah is state aided.

@socialmedia23 Oh, and re the voluntary contribution - yes it does not need to be paid, and the schools generally fundraise to make up the shortfall - but if people don't pay it, the burden then falls more on others. The idea is that you don't want to exclude people who can't pay, and it is hard to determine where that is and isn't the case (you never know who is funding their own overseas holidays and who is being brought by grandparents etc). In my DD's primary school though, they cancelled the year 5 trip as not enough could afford to pay to go on it, and the year 6 trip only went ahead because - well because my DH had received a small inheritance from an uncle and we and a couple of other Year 6 families helped make up for those who couldn't.

@ChanukahLewinsky ( great name!)

yes, that’s what I was trying to express - that it is a national issue as we are letting down a sector of society by leaving them to deal with such a serious problem on their own.

It always seems to me that when there is discrimination in the form of racism to a particular group, we make that group responsible for resolving all the issues caused by that racism. So, it becomes up to the people who fall into that group definition to educate those outside on why their ideas are inaccurate.

Its bizarre when you think about it and a very manipulative form of victim blaming ( prove you are both this stereotype whilst we remove all the other options available to you). Once you have proved that you are not who we think you are, then we will give you everything but only then and the moment you make an errr, you risk losing the life you have built.

How can that be right in 2022, for anyone?

Anyway, at the risk of adding more confusion or saying something that could be misconstrued, I’m going to leave this thread.

Good Shabbos to all who celebrate. You are all in my prayers and thoughts x

Prove you are not this stereotype, sorry

Oh yes how could I forget kerem! I live less than 0.5 miles from it! Lol..

I think my point is that I genuinely don't have any negative feelings towards Jewish people, and I think some of the things the hard left have defended are terrible.

So to be accused of anti-Semitism just kind of adds to my argument.

Growing up I did see, and continue to see racism towards black people and South Asians, and general xenophobic attitudes. This is everywhere. But I can honestly say I've never heard anything anti Semitic in the same time period.

This is why I asked if there's a particular demographic targeting Jews. But apparently there isn't and it's everyone.

So my point is there seems to be a disconnect.

My point about Baddiel monetizing anti-Semitism was to do with his hypocrisy more than anything else.

@Snoozer11

Growing up I did see, and continue to see racism towards black people and South Asians, and general xenophobic attitudes. This is everywhere. But I can honestly say I've never heard anything anti Semitic in the same time period.

That’s because the Jewish community (and other communities, I think) are so invisible and don’t complain because the moment they do, they’ve learned it backfires on them badly.

There is discrimination against people that doesn’t even make the national debate, not because the discrimination doesn’t exist, but because the people affected don’t ‘exist’ in the national psyche as communities worth acknowledging. And I am talking of the traveller community with the knowledge that there must be other communities out there that we ignore (Dalit people for example).

There is so much of a barrier to conquer before issues of discrimination can be considered that I think some communities don’t even see there is a point in trying as they could destroy everything that holds them together.

The discrimination is invisible to you because the people are.

Did you read the excellent reply from @gailsmile?

I'll paste it below:

--

Security outside Jewish institutions is absolutely necessary.
I'll recount some of the incidents that have transpired within the last few years.

• A few weeks ago I witnessed a middle aged white man try enter a synagogue waving a knife. The security guard held him down until the police came.
• When I was a kid, teens threw rocks into my primary school playground whilst yelling Jews!
• A break in at a local Jewish school, the walls and furniture were spray painted with swastikas.
• A deranged man standing outside my son's primary school yelling "Kill the Jews.."

So, sadly you're very wrong. I'm grateful that the British government appreciate the very real danger and fund the security.

Where do you live? Jewish people are concentrated in very few areas in the UK. You may not have seen it because there are not many Jewish people in your area.

Growing up I did see, and continue to see racism towards black people and South Asians, and general xenophobic attitudes. This is everywhere. But I can honestly say I've never heard anything anti Semitic in the same time period.

This is like a man saying he's never heard misogynist comments in real life. Do we assume the man has genuinely never been in the company of people making misogynist remarks or do we think it's far, far more likely he just hasn't noticed such remarks due to his sex?

This is why I asked if there's a particular demographic targeting Jews. But apparently there isn't and it's everyone.

Who has said 'everyone' is targeting Jewish people? How disappointing and disingenuous to trot out the old 'they think the whole world's against them' trope.

I have never heard anti-Semitic comments in the UK. Why would I lie about that? How would I miss them?

By "everyone", I meant every demographic. I'm not familiar with the "they think the whole world's against them" trope, but you certainly seem to think it.

I have never heard anti-Semitic comments in the UK. Why would I lie about that? How would I miss them?

I didn't say you lied. I agree you haven't heard them. What relevance does that have to Jewish people on the thread who have said the frequently hear them?

If women are posting to say they've experienced loads of misogynist comments and a man contributed to the thread saying he had never heard misogynist concerns in the UK, would you think that was a relevant or useful contribution? Or that he was more keen to speak than to listen?

You didn't respond to Gail's rundown (I don't think) of why security is in place at schools, despite previously saying you thought that might be people just being OTT.

@monsteramunch I strongly, strongly advise you not to get sucked into this. I promise you you will not get anywhere. The person you are arguing with is not engaging in good faith. After many years of this bollocks, I can tell it a mile off. You are wasting your time. I say this with the best will in the world and wish you a good shabbos (if applicable) and a good weekend x

You're right, I shouldn't give them airtime.

Hope you have a good weekend too x

The fact you haven't heard antisemitic comments does not mean that they are not made. I certainly have, often the lazy unfunny tropes about Jews and money and on occasion by people who I'm pretty sure would not make a racist comment about any other group. When I've called them out, I can think of twice where the person concerned said "I didn't know you were Jewish", implying anyone who wasn't would surely have no issue with such remarks.

There is no particular demographic for antisemitism and there never has been.

I am going to take the wise words of @BloodAndFire to heart and now hide this thread. Shabbat shalom to all posters that is applicable to.

Adios amigos x