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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think Scotland should become independent?

487 replies

antelopevalley · 17/11/2022 09:55

As life continues to get worse in the UK, it is time for Scotland to go independent. We need to build a forward-looking country that invests in its future, rather than the backward-looking country the UK has become that prioritises the rich. It is time for Scotland to separate from the UK and become that country.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
13
Letsgetreadytoblackcurrantcrumble · 17/11/2022 18:28

Respectfullydisagree · 17/11/2022 16:32

I really wish in my lifetime I will see an independent Scotland. I feel it’s incredibly outdated for the English to believe they can choose countries to control. Leave us to it ffs and get over yourselves already. So what if Scotland suffers from it, at least we would be free and could choose to build the country as we want.

You see it is this attitude that irritates me. “So what if we’re poor?” So you don’t mind if pensioners can’t afford food? That teachers teach in a class of 50 kids? That hospitals have to cut staff by 20%? Cause this is the sort of things you face when you cut your budget by 15% by leaving the Barnett formula behind.

Americano75 · 17/11/2022 18:28

Michellexxx · 17/11/2022 18:20

You do know that you’re just linking an incredibly biased website?

No! Really? Shut the front door!

silverclock222 · 17/11/2022 18:30

No, we voted No and that should be the end of it. Get rid SNP first and you might change the minds of many.....

Jaffacakeorisitabiscuit · 17/11/2022 18:32

'So what if Scotland suffers from it, at least we would be free and could choose to build the country as we want.'

You get to make that decision for yourself but not for anyone else. Not for me. Not for my kids and in all probability my grandkids.

Happylittlechicken · 17/11/2022 18:33

So if Scotland did become independent, would we need to have checkpoints on all roads from England to Scotland? Would they block some off and just have major ones or would we have free movement?

Thebestwaytoscareatory · 17/11/2022 18:34

Scarfymcscarface · 17/11/2022 14:48

thankfully this thread isn’t going the way OP wanted it and is highlighting the shitshow that Scotland has to endure due to the idiots who continue to vote SNP.

“Independence” being the very last thing they want, they’d hate to lose out on their Westminster salaries and an ability to blame everything on the English.

but I suspect the OP was hoping to channel this towards “health” provision anyway ammirite?Hmm

😂😂😂this thread is going exactly the same way these threads always do.

A bunch of predominantly English unionists - who lack the ability to differentiate between the SNP's governance of Scotland within a restrictive and corrupt Union and the debate about the independence of Scotland as a nation - jump on their high horses and lecture the people who call Scotland home on all the terrible things about their country and current government.

Worse they do so without a shred of irony despite them being responsible for keeping one if the most contemptible and corruption government in living memory in power for 12 years.

The fact that the SNP, who consistently stand on a manifesto that supports independence, have maintained an overwhelming majority for over 12 years in a system specifically designed to stop that from happening should tell you all you need to about the feelings of those of us who live here.

Michellexxx · 17/11/2022 18:36

CapMarvel · 17/11/2022 11:38

There is a fundamental difference between individual constituencies and an entire country.

Not one region in Scotland voted for Brexit. Not a single one, and yet here we are suffering the inevitable from the inevitable disaster it has been.

And secondly, in Scotland we've managed to adopt a proportional electoral system so - although it's far from perfect - most people do actually get a voice. Westminster is never going to move away from FPTP.

I find this attitude the hardest to understand.

You are upset about brexit, and so you want to leave another Union and so, likely, suffer similar (if not worse) economic woes.

You are upset about the divide from Europe, and so want to leave the uk. It has been horrid, and yet somehow this will be better? Using the pound for 10 years and having the Bank of England set I interest rates and control the value of the currency we’re using, but we would have no influence over any of this as an independent nation.

It’s just so blind and naive, and incredibly wishful.

antelopevalley · 17/11/2022 18:39

Thebestwaytoscareatory · 17/11/2022 18:34

😂😂😂this thread is going exactly the same way these threads always do.

A bunch of predominantly English unionists - who lack the ability to differentiate between the SNP's governance of Scotland within a restrictive and corrupt Union and the debate about the independence of Scotland as a nation - jump on their high horses and lecture the people who call Scotland home on all the terrible things about their country and current government.

Worse they do so without a shred of irony despite them being responsible for keeping one if the most contemptible and corruption government in living memory in power for 12 years.

The fact that the SNP, who consistently stand on a manifesto that supports independence, have maintained an overwhelming majority for over 12 years in a system specifically designed to stop that from happening should tell you all you need to about the feelings of those of us who live here.

Exactly!
If you went by views on MN the SNP would have two Councillors in the whole of Scotland!

OP posts:
ProfessorFusspot · 17/11/2022 18:40

As you're in Scotland, you'll know that (1) the Scottish Parliament voted to hold a second independence referendum (2) the UK government turned down the Scottish government's request for a Section 30 for a referendum to be held in July 2022 (3) the matter has now gone to the Supreme Court (UK) to determine whether Scotland can hold an independence referendum without formal approval from the UK government/parliament and (4) the new tentative date for the proposed referendum is 19 October 2023.

I'd keep an eye on the courts; what happens next depends on their verdict. I don't think MumsNet have much influence (no offence, MumsNet) although I bet they can find out which type of biscuit the Lord Advocate prefers. As for whether a referendum would lead to independence, that's purely up to the people of Scotland, as it should be.

Michellexxx · 17/11/2022 18:41

PineapplePear · 17/11/2022 12:18

I think turnout was low in Scotland because no one seriously thought the vote would be for leave. In my workplace/social circle most people were shocked and angry at the result, and still are. These huge decisions, which Scotland has minimal sway over, no veto as a country, are why we need independence.

Why have other countries been able to go independent, but it’s not possible for Scotland?

What huge decisions?
We have devolved health and education as well as some powers over taxation.

Reading the news about the freeze on income tax thresholds in England makes me laugh- we’ve been stuck with millions being dragged into higher thresholds for years and no one has had as much of a go at Nicola.

I wouldn’t vote for a nationalist party and I would rather not have Nicola in charge. You wouldn’t vote for a Tory govt either. But that’s democracy. We have to live it with. As it stands, you actually have one person who you would be happy with (NS) making decisions for you. And yet I will struggle to have anyone representing me at all because of the insane obsession with the SNP.

antelopevalley · 17/11/2022 18:42

Happylittlechicken · 17/11/2022 18:33

So if Scotland did become independent, would we need to have checkpoints on all roads from England to Scotland? Would they block some off and just have major ones or would we have free movement?

Have you ever been to other countries with long land borders? They usually have official borders at main roads, but nowhere else. I have lived in other countries and when out for a walk realised I had walked to another country. I did not realise until I saw signposts to local villages. Britain is unusual in being an island. Most countries have land borders with other countries, including NI.

OP posts:
Jaffacakeorisitabiscuit · 17/11/2022 18:42

Thebestwaytoscareatory · 17/11/2022 18:34

😂😂😂this thread is going exactly the same way these threads always do.

A bunch of predominantly English unionists - who lack the ability to differentiate between the SNP's governance of Scotland within a restrictive and corrupt Union and the debate about the independence of Scotland as a nation - jump on their high horses and lecture the people who call Scotland home on all the terrible things about their country and current government.

Worse they do so without a shred of irony despite them being responsible for keeping one if the most contemptible and corruption government in living memory in power for 12 years.

The fact that the SNP, who consistently stand on a manifesto that supports independence, have maintained an overwhelming majority for over 12 years in a system specifically designed to stop that from happening should tell you all you need to about the feelings of those of us who live here.

Talking of irony, the OP, who has lived in Scotland for, ooooh, all of 5 months, has seen fit to tell Scots on the thread that Scotland should be independent.

Americano75 · 17/11/2022 18:46

Americano75 · 17/11/2022 18:28

No! Really? Shut the front door!

Sorry, that sounded way more light-hearted in my head, in black and white it sounds nasty, apologies!

CapMarvel · 17/11/2022 18:47

Michellexxx · 17/11/2022 18:36

I find this attitude the hardest to understand.

You are upset about brexit, and so you want to leave another Union and so, likely, suffer similar (if not worse) economic woes.

You are upset about the divide from Europe, and so want to leave the uk. It has been horrid, and yet somehow this will be better? Using the pound for 10 years and having the Bank of England set I interest rates and control the value of the currency we’re using, but we would have no influence over any of this as an independent nation.

It’s just so blind and naive, and incredibly wishful.

Yes, I'm upset (and angry) about brexit which anyone with half a braincell could see would be an absolute disaster.

But what I'm more angry about is that Scotland voted not to leave the EU and yet, here we are. That makes me fucking furious. The uk is a broken, abusive relationship that I want out of.

Letsgetreadytoblackcurrantcrumble · 17/11/2022 18:48

antelopevalley · 17/11/2022 18:42

Have you ever been to other countries with long land borders? They usually have official borders at main roads, but nowhere else. I have lived in other countries and when out for a walk realised I had walked to another country. I did not realise until I saw signposts to local villages. Britain is unusual in being an island. Most countries have land borders with other countries, including NI.

You don’t need a border if both countries are out with the EFTA / EU. You absolutely do if one is and one is not. No question about it. There isn’t one in Ireland for very specific reasons - they don’t want to reignite terrorism in the religion.

CapMarvel · 17/11/2022 18:50

silverclock222 · 17/11/2022 18:30

No, we voted No and that should be the end of it. Get rid SNP first and you might change the minds of many.....

Yet the SNP keep winning elections in Scotland. And it's not like it's even close.

The overwhelmingly pro-unionist feeling on MN is in no way representative of how Scotland consistently votes. Why is that, I wonder?

Thebestwaytoscareatory · 17/11/2022 18:53

Letsgetreadytoblackcurrantcrumble · 17/11/2022 18:28

You see it is this attitude that irritates me. “So what if we’re poor?” So you don’t mind if pensioners can’t afford food? That teachers teach in a class of 50 kids? That hospitals have to cut staff by 20%? Cause this is the sort of things you face when you cut your budget by 15% by leaving the Barnett formula behind.

Wow! Do you have a time machine or something, because there's no way to know if Scotland would be better or worse of as an independent nation until it happens?

Funding for Scotland is calculated and delivered in the same way as funding for DEFRA or BEIS is (albeit a different formula is used). When it comes to finances and accounting Scotland is consider to be just another government department.

All revenue is pooled into a central resource (the treasurey) which the UK government then re-allocate as they see fit. Due to the way revenue is recorded it is not possible to accurately report on how much revenue comes from each part of the United Kingdom, for example oil and gas exported directly from the North Sea are classified as revenue from "other" sources despite being mostly in Scottish water and is not attributed to Scottish revenue. Similarly, corporation tax is considered from where the HQ is registered, not where revenue was actually generated.

It is therefore an accounting impossibility for Scotland to be subsidised by the English as a) we don't actually know how much each nation is putting in and b) we are considered as a single financial entity at this point (a bit like a household with multiple incomes).

Of course, if you subscribe to the notion that the United Kingdom is not an equal union of the four home nations, then you could simple see it as England is the high earner (due to it's size) and therefore is subsiding the rest. But that doesn't take into account proportions and in any case you should surely be supporting Scotland's push for independence if you feel that way?

Howesome have tried to estimate the contribution of Scotland to the UK coffers and the results, as expected vary massively with some reporting that Scotland are net contributers and others saying we are net beneficiaries.

The GERS figures, which are widley dismissed as inaccurate and misleading due to how the apportion spending/revenue, are routinely used to illustrate Scotlands finances (particularly from pro union sides).

In their latest report they estimated a Scottish "deficit" (which doesn't actually exist) of £15 billion. The UK deficit (which does exist) by comparison was £187 billion. So in the GERS figures Scotland's deficit is the around 8% of the UK total, while they also estimate we contribute around 9% of the UKs revenue with 8.2% of the population. Under these outcomes Scotland again, cannot be said to be being subsidised.

This brings me back the point around how Scotland considered just another government department in the UK and how that impacts on the above. Under the Scotland Act, Scotland must return a balanced budget each and every year and therefore it cannot physically or legally run a deficit.

Any Scottish deficit cited is simply an antempt at allocating a portion of the UK deficit to Scotland, but doing so overlooks a major flaw, which is that under the current set up only the UK government can utilise borrowing powers to run a deficit and as such any deficit is created from the mismanagement of funds by Westminster, not by Scotland.

A second point on this is that England are often the sole beneficiaries of this power, in that if Westminster decide to increase borrowing to fund English only services or projects they can do so and all four home nations are then liable to cover the cost of said borrowing.

So we are currently in a situation where Scotland has to pay for its health, education, and governance from a set budget decided by Westminster with no room to increase spending. And England pay for its health, education, and governance from the revenue of the entire UK and have the the added bonus of being able to raise additional funds as required, which Scotland (and the rest of the home nations) then gets to pay towards the costs of servicing the debt.

No wonder the English are so keen to keep the union in tact.

PineapplePear · 17/11/2022 18:56

Michellexxx · 17/11/2022 18:41

What huge decisions?
We have devolved health and education as well as some powers over taxation.

Reading the news about the freeze on income tax thresholds in England makes me laugh- we’ve been stuck with millions being dragged into higher thresholds for years and no one has had as much of a go at Nicola.

I wouldn’t vote for a nationalist party and I would rather not have Nicola in charge. You wouldn’t vote for a Tory govt either. But that’s democracy. We have to live it with. As it stands, you actually have one person who you would be happy with (NS) making decisions for you. And yet I will struggle to have anyone representing me at all because of the insane obsession with the SNP.

I was talking about the brexit vote Michelle. I also appreciate in a democracy you don’t always get who you want in power, but most countries are savvy enough to not join parliaments with their bigger neighbour meaning that the majority of people in the smaller country never get to see their government of choice in power.

Mojoj · 17/11/2022 18:56

Thebestwaytoscareatory · 17/11/2022 13:02

Yanbu. The union is completely corrupt in favour of only one of the four home nations and provides no material benefit to us.

Just look at energy. Scotland produced enough electricity from renewables last year to meet 98% of it's electrical demand (yes I know there are supply and storage issues but in terms of gross consumption v generation that's the percentage) and 5 times more gas than it consumes. Yet despite being completely energy self-sufficient we are not faced with some of the highest energy bills in Europe but also get charged more to supply energy to the grid than England.

Similarly the way we are funded is shocking. Scotland is allocated a budget and cannot raise additional funds through borrowing, while also being required by law to return balanced books every year (i.e., no deficit). England on the other hand make full use of the UKs borrowing powers to fund their budget deficit and any new projects for their sole benefit (hs2 anyone), which Scotland (and the other home nations) not only have to then help pay back said borrowing with intrest but then also have their budgets reduced due to this additional borrowing.

If independence is not going to be allowed (which can't legally be done anyway) then at a minimum England needs to be stopped from abusing the powers of the UK government for their own benefit.

Well said. The bottom line remains, if Scotland is such a grasping, needy, poor wee neighbour hanging on to the rest of the UK's coatstrings, why don't they let us go...? No-one's answered that yet.

MarshaBradyo · 17/11/2022 18:58

CapMarvel · 17/11/2022 18:47

Yes, I'm upset (and angry) about brexit which anyone with half a braincell could see would be an absolute disaster.

But what I'm more angry about is that Scotland voted not to leave the EU and yet, here we are. That makes me fucking furious. The uk is a broken, abusive relationship that I want out of.

It sounds like angry Brexiteers.

Emotion over economics

Jaffacakeorisitabiscuit · 17/11/2022 18:58

'Well said. The bottom line remains, if Scotland is such a grasping, needy, poor wee neighbour hanging on to the rest of the UK's coatstrings, why don't they let us go...? No-one's answered that yet.'

Because there's more at stake than just the financials....

Letsgetreadytoblackcurrantcrumble · 17/11/2022 18:59

Mojoj · 17/11/2022 18:56

Well said. The bottom line remains, if Scotland is such a grasping, needy, poor wee neighbour hanging on to the rest of the UK's coatstrings, why don't they let us go...? No-one's answered that yet.

It’s very simple. The UK is one country and the majority of Scot’s don’t want to live in an Indy Scotland. Thank goodness the UK government respects the wishes of the majority of the Scottish people and tells Nicola to piss off.

CapMarvel · 17/11/2022 18:59

MarshaBradyo · 17/11/2022 18:58

It sounds like angry Brexiteers.

Emotion over economics

No, it's about the fundamental right for a country to make it's own decisions and not be tied to a bunch of rightwing fuckwits.

Jaffacakeorisitabiscuit · 17/11/2022 19:00

I thought we'd made our own decision in 2014.

MarshaBradyo · 17/11/2022 19:01

CapMarvel · 17/11/2022 18:59

No, it's about the fundamental right for a country to make it's own decisions and not be tied to a bunch of rightwing fuckwits.

Take Back Control

Same old. Leave the nasty controllers behind like Brexiteers did to the EU