To think Scotland should become independent?

[antelopevalley]

As life continues to get worse in the UK, it is time for Scotland to go independent. We need to build a forward-looking country that invests in its future, rather than the backward-looking country the UK has become that prioritises the rich. It is time for Scotland to separate from the UK and become that country.

Your "independence is normal" quip is itself naively ridiculous as you're suggesting it's the only constitutional model out there.

Instead you'll find that Unionism is well established around the world. The United States of America has federalism but describes itself as a UNION. The US Embassy in UK refers to "States of the Union". Like the USA, the Federal Republic of Germany is a union of states each with its own constitution.

However, neither the US or Germany permit secession and regard it as a Constitutional violation.

The Kingdom of Denmark and the Kingdom of the Netherlands are two further examples of unions. They have forms of devolution also.

I could extend the point to various stares globally, but four examples are enough to counter your "independence is normal" slogan.

The European Union is another example although its not a sovereign union state like the examples given.

Unionism IS normal!

Likewise, a majority in Scotland do NOT want independence and prefer to work together with the rest of the British Family to improve all our fortunes. We are NOT fundamentally different from each other. 🤔

At which point did I suggest they'll get rid of proportional representation?

That's right - I didn't . But i am suggestingthey CAN easily lower the burden on getting elected.

As shown, the prospect of independence is NOT the only factor in their success. The other factor is a significant proportion believe the SNP are best placed to run Scotland WITHIN the UK.

At the end of the day, you have zero evidence to prove the best way to get rid of the SNP would be via independence. This is magical thinking NO Unionist should fall for....🤔

I don't really have an opinion on this other than if Scottish people want it, then go for it. The idea that a small resource-healthy country in Western Europe couldn't fend for itself is nonsense, even if you want the UK to continue as it is.

I do like the idea of the UK being split into federal regions, for smaller areas to have their own regional parliaments, and for Westminster to deal only with the big issues such as defence.

The current set up only works for a few areas of the UK, so I do feel some sort of change is required.

Oh, and PR all round please.

No.No No.

At the end of the day, you have zero evidence to prove the best way to get rid of the SNP would be via independence. This is magical thinking NO Unionist should fall for....🤔

And at the end of the day, you have not evidence to suggest SNP would change how voting would work with independence. So I guess we are quits. One scenario is a fairly logical conclusion of independence however, the other is just a pro-union argument with no logic behind it other than anti-SNP rhetoric.

I wouldn't expect any unionist to change their vote based on what might happen in an independent Scotland. I'm actually talking to the pro-independence anti-SNP voters, that might change their vote on an independent referendum, entirely because it's a vote against SNP. It's not. A pro-union view will keep the SNP strong. I'm not actually trying to change anyone's mind. Just give people something to consider.

Here in Northumberland we have Kielder reservoir which is the biggest in Europe ( or was).

We dont get our water from Scotland. It might go further south but we have more than enough in the north.

Actually we are NOT quits since I was challenging YOUR assertion in the first place.

Your only actual response was to argue with argumentum ad ignorantium which is a logical fallacy!

Here:

"The burden of proof is always on the person making an assertion or proposition. Shifting the burden of proof, a special case of argumentum ad ignorantium, is the fallacy of putting the burden of proof on the person who denies or questions the assertion being made."

Since you failed to support your own original assertion in the first place and tried to shift the burden of proof rather unsuccessfully, it logically stands to reason you have ZERO evidence.

And your assertion it'd be easier to vote the SNP out post-independence necessarily falls flat on its face.

In contrast, I successfully questioned your assertion.

I think you'll that pro-independence voters who are anti-SNP would still vote for independence. Just like those in favour of a united Ireland but anti-Provisional Sinn Féin would still vote for a united Ireland.

No, you're fooling nobody on that one.

Well if i was scottish on scotland id probably be for independence. From a climate change perspective i think hydro and wind are good resources. I think water isnt in scarce supply and i think a lot of the country will not be underwater. I think you coukd rebt the spot for trident out to whoever keeps trident. I also think you have some actual exports.

But I live in England so i dont want you to go.

No, you're fooling nobody on that one

I guess you didn't see the post I was responding to then 😆.

Honestly, I stand by everything I said. I don't have proof, I never claimed to. I only ever said it was a fairly logical possibility. So you somehow claiming success because I haven't shown proof is moot.

Anyway, I can't be arsed with blowhards so I'm out.

I really wish in my lifetime I will see an independent Scotland. I feel it’s incredibly outdated for the English to believe they can choose countries to control. Leave us to it ffs and get over yourselves already. So what if Scotland suffers from it, at least we would be free and could choose to build the country as we want.

This idea that because Scotland is running a deficit that we are propped up by the RoUK is utter nonsense, people realise.

The ENTIRE UK is running a deficit. This is a mess of the tory's making that everyone is suffering from.

Scotland has the potential to be a strong, independent country unshackled from the shitshow that is the rest of the UK. Energy, for example. Scotland is a net exporter of electricity and around 97% of it's needs are met by renewables. So, tell me why our electricity bills have shot up when the wholesale price of power is driven by the cost of gas?

It's because the RoUK is lagging behind massively so we effectively subsidise the bills of everyone in England. Who is propping up who, again?

England does not get water from Scotland. Scottish Water in 2018 said "I can confirm that there is currently no water supplies being diverted,
piped or channelled to England from Scotland." and in 2020 the Scottish Government said "There are no current plans to export water to England or internationally". An engineering firm (hoping to cash in) floated proposals for a "super canal" from the Southern Uplands to the Home Counties at a cost of £14bn (ie £50bn by the time it would be complete) which was rejected by both governments.

Whisky - if independent Scotland exported whisky to England it would be taxed in England - just as wines and spirits from Ireland, France, Italy etc are currently. Scotland gets its (Barnett inflated) share of these UK tax revenues, but after independence it would only get tax revenues from drinks sold in Scotland.

Tourism - Figures vary as they are all basically estimates, but Scottish Tourism generates around £12bn/year out of a UK total of around £145bn ie. about 8%. As Scotland has about 8% of the UKs population, it is broadly in line with the rest of the UK with respect to revenue per head.

This doesn’t tally with a pp

Every part of the UK has a deficit except for the south east of England which is our economic driver. The City Of London and Greater London both make far more money every year than Scotland as a whole does.

Unshackling from an economic driver doesn’t sound wise.

Naw, Git tae fuck way that pish.

Whisky - if independent Scotland exported whisky to England it would be taxed in England - just as wines and spirits from Ireland, France, Italy etc are currently. Scotland gets its (Barnett inflated) share of these UK tax revenues, but after independence it would only get tax revenues from drinks sold in Scotland.
And let's not forget who owns those Scottish distilleries and earns the profits. Around 70 percent of whisky distilleries are owned by foreign companies. That profit money is headed off to Japan, America, France....

I want to see Scotland as an independent nation. I don't want a referendum in 2023 or 2024 though, as the answer will be no, and then you cannot argue for a material change or something similar for one in the early 2030s.

If you wait until the early 2030s you can argue a generation has passed, and more chance I think then of a yes vote.

The comments some have made re the SNP I agree with, hence my comment made to some that the best argument against independence is the SNP.

On the contrary, the best argument against independence is still the ECONOMICS, including currency amongst other things.

The SNP performance in administering devolution in Scotland (badly!) is just another argument against.

Well that led down an interesting rabbit hole.......

who owns Scotland's distilleries

It definitely isn't wise from an economic standpoint. London is still the number one European financial centre, after all. Its successes have an impact on the UK overall.

Edinburgh and Glasgow can never compete with London.

But hasn’t NS just had to go asking for more money for NHS Scotland, if Scotland is independent, there won’t be any of that will there. How will Scotland fund all the great schemes NS wants to put into place?

If/ when Scotland becomes independent, the % of Scots voting SNP will certainly decrease. Many people are only voting for them now to send a pro-independence message. As soon as that's happened, they will feel more able to vote for other candidates.
Personally, I hope that means more independent candidates, as none of the existing political parties are very appealing. The Greens in Scotland have lost the plot (i.e. an ecological/ land rights focus) and the Scottish Socialist Party pretty much got destroyed by Tommy Sheridan's shenanigans.

You do know that you’re just linking an incredibly biased website?

Misleading claptrap regarding the claim that "around 97% of it's needs are met by renewables" for Scotland!

Here's the facts as set out by FullFact:

"The Scottish National Party (SNP) leader and Scottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has claimed that almost all electricity used in Scotland is from renewable sources. This is not correct....."

And:

"Suggesting that near 100% of electricity used in Scotland is from renewable sources would be true if Scotland used all its renewable electricity and only exported non-renewable.

But that’s not how electricity systems work.

In fact, the Scottish Government estimates that, in 2020, 56% of the electricity consumed in Scotland came from renewable sources, 30% from nuclear and 13% from fossil fuels.

Renewables still account for far more of Scotland’s electricity consumption than in England and Wales.

But to suggest it's almost 100% is misleading."

In fact, the Scottish Government backtracked on that and basically said they didn't mean to mislead anyone!

Here:

"The Scottish Government told Full Fact the First Minister was referring to Scotland’s gross electricity consumption and it was not her intention to suggest otherwise."

FullFact went on to say:

"We deserve better than bad information.

After we published this fact check, we contacted the SNP to request clarification regarding this claim.

They added text underneath the video on their website but this did not explain that Nicola Sturgeon made an incorrect claim in the video.

They did not add any information to their social media pages where the video was shared.

It’s not good enough."

fullfact.org/environment/scotland-renewable-energy/

Don't ye know the SNP have form for misleading people in order to further their independence agenda?!

I'm afraid your attempted argument cannot stand on its own feet....

Promise?

No! Really? Shut the front door!