To think Scotland should become independent?

[antelopevalley]

As life continues to get worse in the UK, it is time for Scotland to go independent. We need to build a forward-looking country that invests in its future, rather than the backward-looking country the UK has become that prioritises the rich. It is time for Scotland to separate from the UK and become that country.

Has Kate Middleton not been up to anything lately, op?

Yes but the brexit ‘take back control’ was a lie, uk had the power of veto so we always had control. Scotland doesn’t have a veto in the uk, so it is a real issue.

@Americano75said

"Again, not true.

www.livebreathescotland.com/would-england-be-richer-without-scotland/"

That website is as biased as they come. What's funny is they actually mention the so-called "McCrone Report" which wasn't actually a Report according to Gavin McCrone who wrote it:

"Gavin McCrone is a reluctant icon of Nationalism because of something they call the McCrone Report. As he has pointed out ad nauseam, there was no McCrone Report. The fabled document was a memo for incoming Ministers written prior to the first 1974 General Election."

On top of that, that biased website claims it was kept secret from the public. Gavin McCrone again:

"The next myth is that it was suppressed and ignored. Dr McCrone lays that one to rest also. The main thrust was to point out nothing had been done to secure tax revenues from the impending arrival of oil. “Mercifully,” he recalled, “the Labour government set about securing the revenues” by creating Petroleum Revenue Tax."

So no big secret, really.

The rest of the article deals with the comparison with Norway that's in the biased Website.

Link: www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/columnists/brian-wilson-heres-real-story-about-mccrone-report-84854

One big difference is that a No for Brexit would have been final in the same way a Yes is.

If Remain had won I’d expect Leave to accept it as I have the Brexit vote.

And I feel for those who don’t get that from the No.

You mean the majority of voters in 2014, it's an important distinction to make.

Demographics change, people change, opinions change. And speaking of change there have been material changes to the union since the 2014 vote. If you really are respectful of democracy then you should fully support the question of Scottish independence being put to people again.

The only reason I can see you would object to this is if you are a unionist and you fear the outcome will be different this time.

'Demographics change, people change, opinions change.'

Shorthand for all the older folks with lived experience have died and the younger folks who have had their schooling/university careers with the background of an SNP government brainwashing them are now of voting age

We made a decision in 2014 based on the information and circumstances of the time.

But this is 2022 and things have changed drastically since then.

Do you genuinely think we should be bound by a decision from 8 years ago that was influenced by outright lies and now broken promises?

i cba arguing with such idiotic comments suffice to say the majority of Scottish people voted to stay in the union and that tells you all you need to know about the feelings of those of us who live here.

I fear we are going to have two separate but ongoing conversations in a second as I've just quoted you in a previous post.

But no it's not short hand for that at all. It's simply a statement of fact. If you think the future should be bound to the past with no room for reflection and change, fine but I certainly don't think that's the right way to live or govern.

So, Scotland being forced out of the EU, the UK's biggest trading partner, by Brexit vote (because no-one in Scotland voted for Brexit at all) is the material change to push for another independence referendum which will mean Scotland is no longer in a union with it's biggest trading partner.

And Scotland's trade with Ruk is a far bigger chunk of it's export trade than the UK's export trade with the EU.

There have been three general elections since 2014. Three.

Why are people not saying no to another because the decision has already been made?

You do realise elections are not referendums on one topic don’t you

If Remain had won how many more Brexit votes would you want? Until Brexit got the result it wanted?

I’d expect Leave to accept the vote and the ‘voice of the people’ as we have with Leave.

*The majority of those who voted in 2014. Not the majority of Scottish people full stop.

If you're that confident the outcome will be the same then there's no reason to object. Hell, we could even add some clauses to this referendum such as "this is the last one for X years" or "any vows, pledges or promises made by the union are legally binding".

Perhaps, but this time that "control" isn't the fantasy of farage et al.

Why are some people so keen to deny a country the right of self-determination?

Which would be a point on which you could build an argument for staying in the union at the next referendum.

It is not a point that should be used to deny a referendum taking place.

Because the unionist know there is a very real chance that the would lose a second referendum. Its as simple and anti-democratic as that.

I should have added there that the brexit referendum is one of the changes. There are several promises or vows made by the union that have also been broken.

Yes take Wales with you too.

It’s a similar fantasy built on feelings not economics.

But if you do win all that anger you feel will just be reversed and internalised. Whatever Brexit delivered in terms of division will be greater in your own country. People who said no and still want no won’t be happy.

It’s like Brexit on steroids. The costs will be greater too. The plus side is the blame won’t be on us anymore - you’ll have that with each other. The downside is the costs will impact us too.

I didn’t mean 2014, I meant 2014 and all
subsequent polling. There has never been a consistent majority that want to leave the UK - ever.

I think three elections from 2015 to 2019 is excessive, don't you? They are supposed to last four or five years.

So another referendum when there has been a significant change (Scotland was told time and time again that the only way to stay in the EU was to stay in the union. Look how well that turned out), after ten years can't be unreasonable, surely?

Scotland used to produce great politicians. John Smith, Donald Dewar, Gordon Brown, Charles Kennedy, Margo McDonald, Jim Sillars, Jimmy Reid...
Now we have this rubbish

The point you're missing is that the people living in Scotland are divided on how to exercise self-determination.

Any lead Nationalists had was relatively short and certainly nowhere near as long as the longest Unionist lead.

Brexit has not delivered a hoped for surge in support for independence.

Oh, and self-determination is balanced against the right of sovereign states to have security over its territorial integrity.

Howling laughing at those saying scotland costs more to have in UK
Wonder where people pick their facts up from

Not exactly fair we have to put up with this shit Tory government that the majority of England seems to continue voting for