To think Scotland should become independent?

[antelopevalley]

As life continues to get worse in the UK, it is time for Scotland to go independent. We need to build a forward-looking country that invests in its future, rather than the backward-looking country the UK has become that prioritises the rich. It is time for Scotland to separate from the UK and become that country.

Stop this. As a Scot, I implore you to quit pushing this ‘neverendum’ agenda.
It’s utterly laughable to hear deluded Yes voters thinking that oil revenues and whisky taxes will keep the country afloat. I seriously think that you must be clueless about the huge socio-economic issues that Scotland has yet the SNP government continue to throw money away on useless initiatives and projects. As for rejoining the EU, there’s not even a guarantee of acceptance.
The last referendum was billed as as ‘once in a lifetime’ so having to see such huge resources being drained on another vote less than a decade later is disgraceful and continues to polarise a nation. Scotland is not oppressed - we had a vote, we used it, we said NO!

Lol!

So once there is a vote, the electorate can never have another?

I just think that if the elected Govt of Scotland want a yearly referendum... they can bloody well have them.... if the voters of Scotland don't want that, then they can vote in a Union party as their Govt at the next GE.

Its a voluntary union, which means each and every country in it can leave at any time.

As for social problems etc etc well... all these have occurred whilst being part of the UK, plenty of smaller european countries manage perfectly well.

But its sorted now, so your safe.

I saw the "lol", decided that it was juvenile, and decided I'd rather have a serious debate.

And I wasn't suggesting that a naval base be located right in the middle of the town. It's a very large estuary, there are plenty of possible sites.

Do you realise just how divisive the last referendum was? English people resident in Scotland were spat at and told to go home, some people still aren't on speaking terms. You want to inflict a repeat of that upon ordinary Scots with all the economic and social turmoil that a neverendum brings?

I agree with Brenda from Bristol who on being told that Theresa May had called a snap election in 2017 said "You're joking! Not another one!"

Thank you@DownNative really interesting and good to get the actual law.

I agree with you @SadieContrary

@Alexandra2001 - nowhere have I said that there should never be another vote, but the costs and consequences of such processes are massive. Diverting funds and attentions when they’re desperately needed elsewhere. I would only support another referendum if it were guaranteed that should the result be NO again then it has to be something like 25y before it’s pursued again.

You ve not a clue have you?

I worked in Devonport for many years, the place is huge.... to build a dockyard from scratch would cost billions, then there is the rail and road networks... we are talking 100s of billions.. which, it may have escaped your attention, the UK hasn't got, not too mention the planning, the construction.. so say 20 years? How long as HS2 taken ? and thats before we get onto the environmental costs.

So we would pay Scotland to host Trident, that would help them nicely

I don't disagree with the cost/disruptive side of things....But surely this is up to the people of Scotland ?

We don't wait 25years between GE's no need for that length of time scale... 10 yrs perhaps?

They consistently vote SNP.... if they wanted the referendum stuff to go away, they could vote Tory or Labour.

From what posters say on here, the SNP have made a hash of things in Scotland... so one has to wonder why they get in with a landslide every GE.... all the main parties put up candidates and Ruth Davison seems a decent politician, yet got no-where.

It's perfectly valid to say there shouldn't be another referendum for a long time, if ever. Its not undemocratic either as the vast majority of countries prohibits secession.

And, no, the devolved administration in Scotland cannot have a yearly referendum either. Not only would it be hugely destabilising, but it is definitely ultra vires (beyond the power)!

You make the classic mistake in thinking that just because the SNP get more votes than any single party that means a majority of the electorate are in favour of independence.

"A vote for the SNP is not a vote for another referendum." - Nicola Sturgeon

That statement was valid then and is still valid now. People are voting for the SNP to run Scotland within the UK is the very least that can be said about their voters.

Voluntary union?

The UK is a UNITARY SOVEREIGN STATE! International law is very, very clear as the Canadian Supreme Court ruling shows:

"It is clear that international law does not specifically grant component parts of sovereign states the legal right to secede unilaterally from their "parent" state....

The various international documents that support the existence of a people's right to self-determination also contain parallel statements supportive of the conclusion that the exercise of such a right must be sufficiently limited to prevent threats to an existing state's territorial integrity or the stability of relations between sovereign states...

A state whose government represents the whole of the people or peoples resident within its territory, on a basis of equality and without discrimination, and respects the principles of self-determination in its own internal arrangements, is entitled to the protection under international law of its territorial integrity."

- Canadian Supreme Court ruling on the issue of secession

Ininternational AND domestic law, territorial integrity takes precedence. Regions of unitary sovereign states can only hold a referendum with the consent of the Sovereign Government. Ergo, can only leave on that basis. But there is no obligation for any unitary sovereign state to agree to any referendum and, therefore, agree to secession in the first place!

As for social problems, these have progressively got worse the longer the SNP has been in power. Its worse under the SNP than it was under the devolved Labour administration in Scotland or during the period of direct rule. Indeed, Northern Ireland and Wales do NOT have Scotland's rate of drug deaths under the SNP. Northern Ireland's educational ranking in PISA has been higher than Scotland under the SNP too. And so on. None of these can be wholly blamed on the UK since the SNP has complete responsibility for all devolved issues in Scotland. If that flawed logic applied, why have other parts done better in various areas within the same union?

But Nationalism requires all blame to be laid at the door of the Sovereign Government. And so the SNP drive that feeling. An Irish Nationalist leader John Hume asserted that a "hallmark of fascism" is that "the Brits are to blame for everything!". His point was political actors in Northern Ireland were very much to blame since they were divided. The same applies in Scotland where the SNP has successfully Ulsterised Scottish politics.....

The union cannot be blamed for everything.

There is no mystery - Scottish Unionism is itself split between Conservatives, Labour and Lib Dems. Hence, it doesn't get one Unionist party in the driving seat of FM.

But this doesn't translate into increased support for secession in Scotland. At the same time "A vote for the SNP is not a vote for another referendum".

The picture is more nuanced than you're suggesting vis a vis Scottish political parties. Polling shows No is in the lead and is usually in the lead on constitutional matters.

You're welcome, @Workerbeep !

They should be allowed to vote every 5 years.

Eventually there'll be a majority vote to leave.

@Alexandra2001 - I would say that because SNP continually win because those who want independence only have the option of SNP, so have to vote in that direction, whereas the rest will vote across all the available parties leaving them without a majority.

Exactly! Why are those I the rest of the UK so hard of thinking that they cannot grasp this! The majority of Scot’s do not want independence! Poll after poll after poll shows this!

Well, there is also the Scottish Greens who support a second referendum.

A vote for the SNP/greens may not be strictly intended as a vote for independence, but in the absence of a referendum specifically about this (or any other issue) a party is (usually) obligated to carry out it's manifesto if they are elected to power, and in the SNP manifesto was Indyref2, front and centre.

Like it or not there is public support for another referendum going by the only measure that really matters.

No reason to deny them the chance to put this to the test then is there?

To those equally hard of thinking, an opinion poll isn't a democratic vote... its an opinion poll... based on a very small number of people.

Bottom line is the SNP have more MSPs than both main parties put together and the SNP improved their share of the vote.

@Frabbits, the Scottish Greens knew that supporting the SNP was a good way to push themselves forward - their motives are entirely questionable. Their recently published papers outlining an alternative referendum was scant on detail at best, including suggesting that Scotland would be a full member of the EU again (who can guarantee this?) and that any future oil & gas developments would be banned... Eh, isn't Scottish oil and gas the pot of gold at the end of the proverbial rainbow of pursued 'freedom'. Not to mention a proposed 4 day working week. Where is the money coming from for this?!

By all means, my fellow countryfolk should have another referendum but only if there's a firm promise to respect the outcome and work together post result. I wanted to remain in the Union. I got my wish. I wanted to remain in the EU. I didn't get my wish. That's democracy. I see zero point in harping on about Brexit. The vote was cast and we should move on and make good in our collective decisions.

This.

With bells on.

I find it truly baffling that everyone who have been spouting about democracy would now support a fake referendum. That an election, to vote in representatives based on policy decisions, decisions made by our current government, would be an example of democracy in action. Apparently they could not be held accountable for other policy decisions because they’re making an election about one issue.

It is an astounding act of ignorance and arrogance combined. When will the government actually start dealing with policy decisions!

YANBU as long as I get 6 months notice so I can move (a bit more) north.

The Scottish greens are an embarrassment and a joke.
What environmental sound measures have they actually implemented in Scotland?

Bottle Deposit return scheme to come in august 2023; this is just an excuse to cut Council refuse jobs and reduce bin collections even further. You can only access council dumps in my county by car or vehicle now no pedestrian access so circular sustainable economy? Yeah right. Where’s all that critical thinking from the implementation of curriculum for excellence?

How anyone regards the greens is besides the point. The fact is that along with the SNP they won a mandate to pursue indyref2.

That's the key democratic lever in play here to determine whether the Scottish public want their government to attempt to hold another referendum.

@Frabbits and by all means have another referendum… but respect the outcome this time. It’s ridiculous that the Nationalists expect to keep repeating the process over and over and over in the hope they get their own way. If they were a toddler it would be a tantrum 😉

It is madness