To think Scotland should become independent?

[antelopevalley]

As life continues to get worse in the UK, it is time for Scotland to go independent. We need to build a forward-looking country that invests in its future, rather than the backward-looking country the UK has become that prioritises the rich. It is time for Scotland to separate from the UK and become that country.

50% of UK gas usage across the year comes from NSea, a great deal from what would become Scottish waters, vast areas for renewables, tide wave wind.. fishing forestry and a suitable port for Trident.

Plus were would the Royals go? lol

our society and country’s problems are complex and it’s naive and foolhardy to think that independence will solve inequalities and miraculously lead to a utopia.

One thing I can’t understand regarding SNP is when Nicola Sturgeon was health minister she cut the number of training places at university for nurses and doctors. I read the recent rise in Scottish places for medicine actually equated to something like 10 places across the whole country. That’s not going to make much difference.

wasn’t there some problem with the latest cohort of medical students graduating from Dundee too and a lot are having to resit?

Saying a lot of nhs vacancies were filled with EU candidates doesn’t sit well for me either as surely that depletes their home country of their expertise and skills.

energy storage in Scotland needs looking at imo.

my other half deals a lot with exports. Brexit hasn’t really caused that many problems. North America are much more stringent than EU. Brexit has highlighted compliance issues that had been ignored previously. I think it’s good to know the source of ingredients and materials are sound, traceable and sustainable.

if independence movement concentrated on our infrastructure a bit more instead of the virtue signalling I’d be more sympathetic.

They were promised the only way for Scotland to remain in the EU was to vote NO. In good faith they did so, swinging the referendum away from the will of born-Scots.

But that was true: it was the only way that Scotland could remain in the EU. The fact that a later democratic vote took things down a different pathway is immaterial; indeed, the very fact that there was a vote shows that, for everybody in the UK, there was the option to stay in the EU, had the majority wanted it.

Saying 'the only way that this could happen' is absolutely not the same as saying that 'if you choose this, this WILL happen'. The only way you can possibly win a competition is by entering, but that doesn't mean that, if you enter, you WILL win it.

Juvenile response.

On the contrary, I made an argument AND then supported it with examples from international law as well as politics.

Your condescending Ad Hominem Fallacy response just demonstrates you have no logical argument to make against international law and politics as it stands.

That suits me. 🤷‍♂️

Unfortunately, you have failed to turn anything on its head!

The SNP are free to campaign for election in England, Wales and Northern Ireland. There's no law that prohibits them, you know! But they, you and I know they won't get elected in England, Wales or Northern Ireland.

Scotland is NOT separate from the rest of the UK. If it were, your campaign for independence wouldn't make ANY sense whatsoever! So, any party from any part of the UK can stand in any other part of the UK. After all, England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are INTEGRAL parts of the ONE sovereign state aka country known as the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. See above - the SNP can stand in ANY part of the UK. Not a problem!

Your attempted argument about French and German political parties standing in each other's respective sovereign territory is laughable!

That's because Germany and France are NOT part of a sovereign state called Germance! They are TWO separate, independent and sovereign states, you know.

Your attempted comparison falls flat on its face. Completely.

Scotland within the UK is far more comparable to Catalonia within Spain or Quebec within Canada. It's also comparable to Bavaria within Germany.

Yet Quebec, Catalonia and Bavaria have all been shown that they have zero democratic rights to secession from their respective parent states. You see, territorial integrity of sovereign states takes precedence.

The only way self-determination takes precedence over territorial integrity is in cases of oppression by the sovereign state or in a colonial context.

Evidence here:

"In a UN context, the right to self-determination in its external shape is applicable to people (not to national, ethnic, and religious minorities, whose rights are recognized in Article 27 of the ICCPR, 1966) or to the nations in the cases of: a) a colonial context; or b) in a situation of any foreign domination or occupation."

"Today, it may be concluded that international law bestows on all peoples the right to self-determination, but that the right to external self-determination, exercised through remedial secession, only applies in extreme circumstances, to colonized and severely persecuted peoples."

Fortunately, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Quebec, Catalonia and Bavaria are neither examples of colonialism NOR are they in any way oppressed by their parent states.

No wonder you wanted to compare Scotland to Germany and France! 🤷‍♂️

Therefore, your bogus comparison is what we call False Equivalence and falls flat on its face.

Very well argued!

I would add that the issue of EU membership was NOT a decisive factor for Scottish Nationalism or Scottish Unionism alike in 2014.

See attachment. That blows the Nationalist argument apart that Scotland was lied to in regards to EU membership in 2014. Indeed, a Yes vote in 2014 was a vote to leave the UK AND the EU in one fell swoop!

Again in 2016, Scotland had the second lowest turnout in the UK EU Referendum which demonstrates there wasn't particularly strong support, arguably. Only Northern Ireland had a lower turnout.

Funny.....you previously claimed Scotland produces 97% of its energy needs via renewables! Now you claim its 98%.

Either way, both figures are misleading as I demonstrated to you several pages ago.

Misleading claptrap regarding the claim that "around 97% of it's needs are met by renewables" for Scotland!

Here's the facts as set out by FullFact:

"The Scottish National Party (SNP) leader and Scottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has claimed that almost all electricity used in Scotland is from renewable sources. This is not correct....."

And:

"Suggesting that near 100% of electricity used in Scotland is from renewable sources would be true if Scotland used all its renewable electricity and only exported non-renewable.

But that’s not how electricity systems work.

In fact, the Scottish Government estimates that, in 2020, 56% of the electricity consumed in Scotland came from renewable sources, 30% from nuclear and 13% from fossil fuels.

Renewables still account for far more of Scotland’s electricity consumption than in England and Wales.

But to suggest it's almost 100% is misleading."

In fact, the Scottish Government backtracked on that and basically said they didn't mean to mislead anyone!

Here:

"The Scottish Government told Full Fact the First Minister was referring to Scotland’s gross electricity consumption and it was not her intention to suggest otherwise."

FullFact went on to say:

"We deserve better than bad information.

After we published this fact check, we contacted the SNP to request clarification regarding this claim.

They added text underneath the video on their website but this did not explain that Nicola Sturgeon made an incorrect claim in the video.

They did not add any information to their social media pages where the video was shared.

It’s not good enough."

fullfact.org/environment/scotland-renewable-energy/

Don't ye know the SNP have form for misleading people in order to further their independence agenda?!

I'm afraid your attempted argument cannot stand on its own feet....

Sure hen.

Oh look, more cut/pasting. Well done you!

Wish they would!

This kind of response never reflects well on YOU because you're willfully ignoring the facts as well as evidence that undermines your attempted argument.

FullFact is an independent fact checker.

Once again, there's nothing wrong with presenting an argument as long as you can actually back it up with evidence. This is what I have done.

You? Definitely not. What you very obviously rely on is emotional based argument that deliberately misleads others. And you hope enough people are taken in by it. It's not working out for you.....is it? 🤷‍♂️

But it suits me!

You do know that the oil and gas in the North Sea are owned by private companies? So they’re the ones who get the profits, not the govt. hence the windfall tax.
Also, NS has already said the the royals would remain head of state so your point is totally irrelevant re where they would go. Balmoral is also privately owned, so they can go whenever they want..

Excellent cut'n'paste effort. Massive kudos and all that. No, seriously, massively massive kudos.

Except .... except .... SCOTLAND is a nation where the people are sovereign, not the state.

I'll now leave this thread, echoing the words of @CapMarvel by saying 'Sure, hen.' and adding, enjoy your subjugation while it lasts.

It speaks to YOUR level of intellect that you don’t seem to grasp the importance of backing up your argument with actual facts and evidence.

Unfortunately for you, the only act of self-determination Scotland is entitled to is devolution under international law. The same holds true for Northern Ireland, Wales and Catalonia, to name three.

It is sovereign independent states that are truly sovereign and international law clearly prioritises territorial integrity over secessionist demands. The only times international law doesn't is in a colonial context and/or persecution by the parent state.

But that isn't what happens in Scotland. Your "enjoy your subjugation while it lasts" is ridiculous childish nonsense. 🤦‍♂️

Your argument has been on a shoogly peg all along and it speaks volumes you've failed at every opportunity to present evidence from international law and politics to support your argument.

Again, that suits me!

I know this hasn’t been posted on for a while but just heard ruling and reasons on radio

Very interesting. I think DownNative was along same lines from legal pov

It would be better if they asked the question in a regular referendum once every ten years.

It would save all this arguing and court action, allow the Scots to make their own decision, and know that if they choose no this time, they will get another say in 10 years time.

Yes, I was very much on the money with how international law views the right to self-determination and secession. It is always qualified by a right to territorial integrity by the Sovereign Parent State.

On top of that, self-determination only really applies in cases of oppression and a colonial context. Where the Sovereign Parent State has devolved limited powers to one or more of its regions, that is self-determination for that region fulfilled. Hence, Scotland, Northern Ireland, Quebec and Catalonia are not entitled to anything else under international law as the right to self-determination has NOT been infringed.

It is NOT illegal nor is it undemocratic. To claim it is, is to engage in blatant emotional manipulation of the people whilst deliberately misleading them.

See crucial parts of the UK Supreme Court judgement in my attached images.

err where is it set in stone that these companies would remain as private entities? or tax rates stay the same? or additional/existing renewables stay privately owned.... Labours plan for a Green Energy company... state owned.

...and how long would the King remain head of state?

Presumably IF Scotland ever did go independent, all this would be up in the air?

Anyway, this thread is overtaken by events, Scotland wont get another vote for many more years, which imho will turn out to be a mistake.... SNP would lose right now but in a few years time? perhaps not.

A company can’t just be stolen and taken over by a government.. I’m aging Westminster tried to do that!

As is stands no private company can even attempt to build wind farms etc anyway. So it’s nothing new.

Tax rates and private companies are confusing and also I thought we were aiming for Scotland being some miraculous growth without allowing private companies to aim for profits..

Anyway, as you said well maybe have another vote with next generation, as per last claim by snp!

Yes I heard most of the reasoning. Well argued on here even if you got some backlash from emotive quarters.

Eh, Scottish Nationalists have nothing on Irish Republicans who you'd get far worse from! 🤣

Either way, it's water off a duck's back and I stick to logic plus evidence to support my argument.

It could go the way a similar movement in Quebec has in the last few years. Into managed decline once it dawns on more people what international law actually does say about secession.

More tellingly, Scottish Nationalists hitched their wagon to Catalan independence, but support for Catalan secession has been declining also.

In years to come, people in Scotland will prefer to focus on jobs and education within the UK similar to the above. Likewise, a former Irish Government Minister has written an article on how Provisional Sinn Féin and Provisional IRA now have a significantly muted demand for a border poll.

unherd.com/2022/11/sinn-fein-has-given-up-on-a-united-ireland/

For most people, the priority isn't secession by any means.

One more thing, it's important to understand what the UK actually is.

It's often referred to as a union. Likewise the United States is referred to as union of states.

More important than that, both the UK and USA are unitary sovereign states. This is the important bit in international law!

And the bit Scottish Nationalists would rather ignore so they can mislead you into thinking we're not a unitary sovereign state. Yet they agreed to the legal power of the unitary sovereign state that brought the devolved administrations in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland into being! It speaks to a contradiction at the heart of the Nationalist argument.

Self-determination = devolution.

Sovereign Government = National Government.

This is democratic and legal. The people voted for a limited devolved government in the 1990s and have never consented to them becoming unlimited sovereign governments. That's democracy!

And law.

We also buy quite a lot of gas from Norway. We manage to do that in spite of the fact that they are a different country. Besides, fossil fuels are on the way out - aren't the Scottish Government committed to shutting down extraction? We also buy electricity from France and sell it to Ireland. Again we manage to do this without being part of the same country.

Trident only went to Faslane in order to provide jobs in marginal constituencies. There's no reason that it couldn't be relocated to Falmouth.

I'm not sure that the location of the royals' holiday home is really a reason to say that England "needs" Scotland. Wasn't Charles proposing to turn Balmoral into a museum anyway?

It would certainly be painful on both sides for the union to break up (if you thought that undoing 40 years of European integration was hard, just think how hard it would be to undo 300). It won't cause England to implode though, life would go on.

Have you ever been to Falmouth..? its a holiday destination, with a huge university campus.

The road network, rail links the upgrade to the port, compulsory purchase of land and housing... or its built well away from the town? Yes Falmouth has suitable sea access (i believe) but either way the costs of relocation will be 100s of billions.
Devonport may have been an option but has been shrunk by selling off large amounts of it to private housing and it is in the middle of a largish city.

Faslane/Rosythe is an existing and large WW2 naval base, Falmouth never really has been & back in the 60s, there was no where else to put it.

Anyway, as i said earlier.... its done and dusted now, there wont be a vote for the foreseeable future.

The Blamoral thing was tongue in cheek... hence the lol, sorry that passed you by.