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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think Scotland should become independent?

487 replies

antelopevalley · 17/11/2022 09:55

As life continues to get worse in the UK, it is time for Scotland to go independent. We need to build a forward-looking country that invests in its future, rather than the backward-looking country the UK has become that prioritises the rich. It is time for Scotland to separate from the UK and become that country.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
13
CapMarvel · 18/11/2022 19:06

DownNative · 18/11/2022 13:16

Of course it is blatantly circular reasoning since you're attempting to reinforce your implication of Unionist fear as well as attempting present it as a False Dilemma between confidence and fear only without any other options. That's two logical fallacies.

As expected, you've nothing other than attempting to appeal to emotions (logical fallacy too!).

Meanwhile, I'm quoting international law and politics to show my point!

Secession is not a democratic right

"Currently, among the constitutional laws of the world, only two states carry the right of secession in their constitution: Ethiopia, and the Federation of Saint Kitts and Nevis."

  • My Country, Europe

“In the Federal Republic of Germany, which is a nation-state based on the constituent power of the German people, states are not ‘masters of the constitution’.

Therefore there is no room under the constitution for individual states to attempt to secede. This violates the constitutional order.”

  • Ruling from the Constitutional Court of the Federal Republic of Germany.

"The Constitution is based on the indissoluble unity of the Spanish Nation, the common and indivisible homeland of all Spaniards; it recognizes and guarantees the right to self-government of the nationalities and regions of which it is composed and the solidarity among them all."

  • Section Two of the Spanish Constitution

"France shall be an indivisible, secular, democratic and social Republic."

  • Article One of the French Constitution

"The Republic, one and indivisible, recognizes and promotes local autonomies; implements in those services which depend on the State the fullest measure of administrative decentralization; accords the principles and methods of its legislation to the requirements of autonomy and decentralization."

  • Article Five of the Italian Constitution

"It is clear that international law does not specifically grant component parts of sovereign states the legal right to secede unilaterally from their "parent" state....

The various international documents that support the existence of a people's right to self-determination also contain parallel statements supportive of the conclusion that the exercise of such a right must be sufficiently limited to prevent threats to an existing state's territorial integrity or the stability of relations between sovereign states...

A state whose government represents the whole of the people or peoples resident within its territory, on a basis of equality and without discrimination, and respects the principles of self-determination in its own internal arrangements, is entitled to the protection under international law of its territorial integrity."

  • Canadian Supreme Court ruling on the issue of secession

"I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

  • United States of America Pledge Of Allegiance

"The answer is clear. If there was any constitutional issue resolved by the Civil War, it is that there is no right to secede. (Hence, in the Pledge of Allegiance, ‘one Nation, indivisible.’)”

  • Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia in 2006

“Article 52 of the Constitution is a unitarian structure, indivisible, indecomposable."

Dean of the Brazilian Supreme Court, Judge Celso de Mello

"WHEREAS the people of New South Wales, Victoria, South Australia, Queensland, and Tasmania, humbly relying on the blessing of Almighty God, have agreed to unite in one indissoluble Federal Commonwealth...."

  • Preamble to the Constitution of the Commonwealth of Australia

Well done, you can cut and paste in lieu of having an actual argument.

Thebestwaytoscareatory · 18/11/2022 19:14

Slightly off topic but I just went to put the heating on when I remembered how much I'm paying for energy and how much more I'm going to be paying come April and thought better not.

It's absolutely infuriating that I'm having to have do this despite the fact I live in a country that is completely and utterly self-sufficient in energy.

Even more infuriating is the fact that I have to pay even higher energy bulls than my neighbours to the south, who are no where near energy self-sufficient, because my country is forced to share it's resources with them!

How can anyone genuinely say the union works in Scotland's favour at this point?

MarshaBradyo · 18/11/2022 19:24

Thebestwaytoscareatory · 18/11/2022 19:14

Slightly off topic but I just went to put the heating on when I remembered how much I'm paying for energy and how much more I'm going to be paying come April and thought better not.

It's absolutely infuriating that I'm having to have do this despite the fact I live in a country that is completely and utterly self-sufficient in energy.

Even more infuriating is the fact that I have to pay even higher energy bulls than my neighbours to the south, who are no where near energy self-sufficient, because my country is forced to share it's resources with them!

How can anyone genuinely say the union works in Scotland's favour at this point?

Yet the SE contribute more economically so we’re all benefitting from that.

I don’t think people can see straight over this. A pp stated what the economic drivers were. I’d not cut myself off from that.

Notonationalism · 18/11/2022 20:18

It’s totally bonkers. Scexit - like Brexit on steroids, trying to extricate a country from a 300year old union as opposed to a 40yr old one. More success removing the eggs from a Victoria sponge.

Mojoj · 18/11/2022 20:59

Trez1510 · 18/11/2022 00:52

Did you also hold the view the French, German, Spanish had a right to an opinion the Brexit referendum?

I believe they did have opinions, and they've been proven correct it was a collective act of self-harm, they knew it, Scots knew, the NIrish knew it. But, just like aliens who held views on Brexit rUK residents will have no vote when we enact our self-determination. 🙂

Anyone can have an opinion, so long as that opinion is not to simply regurgitate the right-wing media's tropes/rhetoric regarding Scotland being 'too wee, too stupid, too poor' to become a thriving independent nation.

I was born, bred and intend to die in Scotland. Me, and many others on this thread have, it's true, lived here far longer than the OP.

Yet, you still decide to ignore the facts presented to you by Scots regarding the 'too wee, too poor, too stupid' rhetoric we receive from those who zilch, nada, zero to do with our constitution.

You seem to believe, for whatever reason, those who desire/demand independence are influenced solely by our FM. Ironically, the tropes/rhetoric espoused by you/your ilk come direct from the pages of the DM, Torygraph and Sun whose billionaire owners fully understand the importance of Scotland and her resources to rUK.

Btw, I doubt your Scottish if you think being told to not talk utter shite is abusive! lol

Oh, and if you think my earlier post was a 'tirade' you are definitely not Scottish. 🙂

This.🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

Mojoj · 18/11/2022 21:04

Letsgetreadytoblackcurrantcrumble · 18/11/2022 18:23

Indy is the big political question in Scotland. There is the SNP on one side and Labour and Tories on the other, and smaller parties in between. It’s a first past the post system. It’s obvious why the SNP keep getting voted in.

Absolutely. It's obvious. And I'm still waiting to hear why the rest of the UK is so determined to hold onto poor, wee, stupid, greedy, grasping, Scotland......Anybody..??

AllyCatTown · 18/11/2022 21:09

During the independence referendum people would bring up how bad Cameron was and I thought how short sighted it was as he wouldn’t be prime minister forever nor would the tories always be in power. However it’s not just about the current conservative prime minister it’s about a pattern and a difference in politics between England and Scotland. The conservatives have been the most successful party in the UK because a lot of English people obviously like what they do and although they’ll likely lose the next election they’ll be back again and again. I’m sick of them. I don’t like putting up borders but I’m wondering if it’s for the best. I’d like to be an EU citizen again too.

Jaffacakeorisitabiscuit · 18/11/2022 21:12

Mojoj · 18/11/2022 21:04

Absolutely. It's obvious. And I'm still waiting to hear why the rest of the UK is so determined to hold onto poor, wee, stupid, greedy, grasping, Scotland......Anybody..??

I did respond to your question upthread. I know my response will be dismissed, but it's there

CapMarvel · 18/11/2022 21:13

Thebestwaytoscareatory · 18/11/2022 19:14

Slightly off topic but I just went to put the heating on when I remembered how much I'm paying for energy and how much more I'm going to be paying come April and thought better not.

It's absolutely infuriating that I'm having to have do this despite the fact I live in a country that is completely and utterly self-sufficient in energy.

Even more infuriating is the fact that I have to pay even higher energy bulls than my neighbours to the south, who are no where near energy self-sufficient, because my country is forced to share it's resources with them!

How can anyone genuinely say the union works in Scotland's favour at this point?

I actually wrote to my tory mp on this matter - Scotland is a net exporter of energy and produces about 98% of it's energy needs via renewables. I didn't get an answer of course, because this is a man who couldn't be arsed answering the phone when most of his consituency lost power for 10 days last year so why bother now?

Yet we are suffering from the same massive increase in electricity prices because they are based on the price of gas - when almost none of Scotland's power is generated this way.

So what is happening is that Scottish bill payers are massively subsidising the bills of the rest of the uk. Better together, indeed.

awaynboilyurheid · 18/11/2022 21:27

JingleB3lls · 17/11/2022 23:51

The majority of Scotland do not want independence. We had our vote. We voted no.

But the SNP will keep going with the madness of Independance as it’s their only goal, not sorting class sizes, hospital waiting lists, the poor state of major roads, roads, insufficient rail infrastructure, poor housing I could go on and on.
what a fiasco.

CapMarvel · 18/11/2022 21:34

awaynboilyurheid · 18/11/2022 21:27

But the SNP will keep going with the madness of Independance as it’s their only goal, not sorting class sizes, hospital waiting lists, the poor state of major roads, roads, insufficient rail infrastructure, poor housing I could go on and on.
what a fiasco.

And yet the SNP keep absolutely walking elections and polling for people in favour of indyref2 and independence itself currently sits at around 50%.

So actually, maybe scotland does want independence after all.

slowquickstep · 18/11/2022 21:39

CapMarvel · 17/11/2022 21:39

Scotland voted to remain in the UK in 2014 largely on the premise that it was the only way to remain part of the EU. How did that work out?

Scotland is a country. It's defined as a country and recognised internationally as country. London is not, this is not a difficult distinction to grasp.

The fact is that Scotland voted overwhelmingly to remain in the EU and yet... yeah. Democracy indeed.

Scotland also voted to remain part of the U.K Democracy indeed !

slowquickstep · 18/11/2022 21:47

Trez1510 · 17/11/2022 23:08

@DownNative

How very undemocratic of England not allowing EU nationals etc. resident in England (and her chattels lol) to participate in the constitutional vote on exiting the European Union.

The Scottish people live in a COUNTRY, not a state, therefore we can decide to fuck-off out of this (so-called) union of equals 😂without England's permission.

In the run up to the 2014 referendum, myself and 10 of thousands of Scot's living elsewhere were not allowed to vote in the referendum. You have double standards.

slowquickstep · 18/11/2022 21:55

Murdoch1949 · 18/11/2022 05:37

Cannot wait for independence. Then back in EU. Then EU passport. BRING IT ON.

Eh you do realise hen that Spain will always veto any attempt Scotland make to join the E.U. Spain have told us this many many times, so why don't you grasp that? Do you think they are joking ? They are not, they cannot allow it, it is really that simple. The other union is NOT an option.

WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll · 18/11/2022 22:43

No-one, yet, has answered the question I posed in an earlier post, if we are so dependant on the rest of the UK and such a bloody drain, let us go....

I for one would be happy to let you go, if that's what a majority of you want, but up to now, that remains to be proven.

Eh you do realise hen that Spain will always veto any attempt Scotland make to join the E.U. Spain have told us this many many times, so why don't you grasp that? Do you think they are joking ? They are not, they cannot allow it, it is really that simple. The other union is NOT an option.

Somebody upthread (I can't remember who now) claimed that Spain wouldn't be 'allowed' to veto Scotland joining, as 'Germany would tell them' to vote them in! If that were indeed true, who would even want to be part of a 'democratic' union of countries where some are more democratic than others?

StoneofDestiny · 18/11/2022 23:25

Land, castles, leisure time for the aristos.
The rest of us get to fund it Hurrah

Scotland isn't the Royal Family!

StoneofDestiny · 18/11/2022 23:35

Independence for Scotland is the best decision - never again will we get right wing amoral Tory Governments imposed on us despite us not voting for them

Mojoj · 18/11/2022 23:38

Still waiting......

WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll · 18/11/2022 23:42

Independence for Scotland is the best decision - never again will we get right wing amoral Tory Governments imposed on us despite us not voting for them

Fair point - but you could say the same about much of the north of England, outside of Cheshire. Democracy can often mean that 49% (or more, depending on how totals are arrived at) of the group of voters don't (often never) get what they want.

The only way is to do whatever it takes to exclude yourself from that group of voters - and becoming an independent country is certainly one way!

Trez1510 · 19/11/2022 00:02

slowquickstep · 18/11/2022 21:47

In the run up to the 2014 referendum, myself and 10 of thousands of Scot's living elsewhere were not allowed to vote in the referendum. You have double standards.

What part of my post confused you, hen?

The point of my post was that, in Scotland, all residents were entitled to vote on our constitutional matters.

Whereas, the English who designed the Brexit referendum refused to allow all residents to vote in that referendum, yet included emigrants - self-referring 'ex-pats' who are mocked worldwide for refusing to accept they are immigrants to someone else's country lol.

In fact, some may say, and I'm one of them, our EU-born residents were shafted twice. They were promised the only way for Scotland to remain in the EU was to vote NO. In good faith they did so, swinging the referendum away from the will of born-Scots. They were aided and abeted in that by rUK-born voters and temporary residents (Uni/military) also voting against the wishes of born-Scots.

Fast forward and having used EU-born residents to shackle Scotland to England, England then realised the will of the English people would easily be overridden by the wishes of EU-born residents and, in order to prevent their wishes being denied them, they excluded EU-born residents from voting.

Meanwhile, they allowed immigrants in other countries ('ex-pats' lol) to vote on matters that affect ME but do not allow those who live alongside ME to vote.

You've obviously been Stockholm Syndrome'd into believing the only way of 'democracy' is the English way i.e. exclude those who potentially will not vote as you wish, and include those who are no longer resident but who will most likely vote as you wish.

Perfidious Albion, right enough.

Jaffacakeorisitabiscuit · 19/11/2022 08:17

Or perhaps EU born residents just preferred the idea of being in Scotland as part of the UK. Now you're treating the will of EU born residents with the contempt you're showing everyone who doesn't support independence. Or don't they matter because even if living and working here they're 'No true Scot'?

Mojo, I said upthread I had responded to your question. If you wish to ignore the response that's OK, but don't carry on with the suggestion that no-one has responded.

MarshaBradyo · 19/11/2022 08:23

Notonationalism · 18/11/2022 20:18

It’s totally bonkers. Scexit - like Brexit on steroids, trying to extricate a country from a 300year old union as opposed to a 40yr old one. More success removing the eggs from a Victoria sponge.

Yep good way to put it. It’s going to be horrendous and hugely costly, for us too so it does impact everyone.

Alexandra2001 · 19/11/2022 08:36

Doesn't matter what the costs are, its up to Scotland.... IF the union is voluntary, then they have the right to leave at any time.

With Scotlands natural resources plus the money the English would give them to keep Trident there, Scotland would succeed.... plenty of far smaller countries do very well as independent countries.

I trust posters comparing to Brexit are emailing their MP to tell them to reverse Brexit... or maybe they voted for it lol.

I think England needs Scotland a lot more than the other way round.

Snnowflake · 19/11/2022 09:14

I think England needs Scotland a lot more than the other way round.

hmmm - not really - I can’t see any reason

BlueBellsArePretty · 19/11/2022 09:49

@Snnowflake

You'll be happy to see us go then.