To think Scotland should become independent?

[antelopevalley]

As life continues to get worse in the UK, it is time for Scotland to go independent. We need to build a forward-looking country that invests in its future, rather than the backward-looking country the UK has become that prioritises the rich. It is time for Scotland to separate from the UK and become that country.

Of course it is blatantly circular reasoning since you're attempting to reinforce your implication of Unionist fear as well as attempting present it as a False Dilemma between confidence and fear only without any other options. That's two logical fallacies.

As expected, you've nothing other than attempting to appeal to emotions (logical fallacy too!).

Meanwhile, I'm quoting international law and politics to show my point!

Secession is not a democratic right

"Currently, among the constitutional laws of the world, only two states carry the right of secession in their constitution: Ethiopia, and the Federation of Saint Kitts and Nevis."

• My Country, Europe

“In the Federal Republic of Germany, which is a nation-state based on the constituent power of the German people, states are not ‘masters of the constitution’.

Therefore there is no room under the constitution for individual states to attempt to secede. This violates the constitutional order.”

• Ruling from the Constitutional Court of the Federal Republic of Germany.

"The Constitution is based on the indissoluble unity of the Spanish Nation, the common and indivisible homeland of all Spaniards; it recognizes and guarantees the right to self-government of the nationalities and regions of which it is composed and the solidarity among them all."

• Section Two of the Spanish Constitution

"France shall be an indivisible, secular, democratic and social Republic."

• Article One of the French Constitution

"The Republic, one and indivisible, recognizes and promotes local autonomies; implements in those services which depend on the State the fullest measure of administrative decentralization; accords the principles and methods of its legislation to the requirements of autonomy and decentralization."

• Article Five of the Italian Constitution

"It is clear that international law does not specifically grant component parts of sovereign states the legal right to secede unilaterally from their "parent" state....

The various international documents that support the existence of a people's right to self-determination also contain parallel statements supportive of the conclusion that the exercise of such a right must be sufficiently limited to prevent threats to an existing state's territorial integrity or the stability of relations between sovereign states...

A state whose government represents the whole of the people or peoples resident within its territory, on a basis of equality and without discrimination, and respects the principles of self-determination in its own internal arrangements, is entitled to the protection under international law of its territorial integrity."

• Canadian Supreme Court ruling on the issue of secession

"I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

• United States of America Pledge Of Allegiance

"The answer is clear. If there was any constitutional issue resolved by the Civil War, it is that there is no right to secede. (Hence, in the Pledge of Allegiance, ‘one Nation, indivisible.’)”

• Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia in 2006

“Article 52 of the Constitution is a unitarian structure, indivisible, indecomposable."

Dean of the Brazilian Supreme Court, Judge Celso de Mello

"WHEREAS the people of New South Wales, Victoria, South Australia, Queensland, and Tasmania, humbly relying on the blessing of Almighty God, have agreed to unite in one indissoluble Federal Commonwealth...."

• Preamble to the Constitution of the Commonwealth of Australia

@DownNative

"Since you tried being passive aggressive on my point about there being no right in international law to secession.......I challenge YOU to prove there is such a right."

++++

Ooo now I do love a challenge!!

As part of the Good Friday Agreement, an explicit provision for holding a Northern Ireland border poll was made in UK law. The Northern Ireland Act 1998 states that “if at any time it appears likely to him that a majority of those voting would express a wish that Northern Ireland should cease to be part of the United Kingdom and form part of a united Ireland”, the Secretary of State shall make an Order in Council enabling a border poll.

Now that looks like a pretty explicit provision in UK law on the right of Northern Ireland to leave the UK if a majority so wishes.

@DownNative

'Less passive aggressive rubbish from you and more engaging with the actual arguments made. 🤷‍♂️'

No I'm under no obligation to engage with your condescending and rapidly googled and pasted wall of text. So no I will not be taking you up on your 'challenge'

Desperate to keep us eh? Here's a 'challenge' for you, explain why?

At least you recognise democracy as being 'an ongoing process' .... we, Scots, are at the stage of this process we wish to assert our right to self-determination.
I just wish there were more like you who understand democracy is not static.

Yes, as I explicitly said - I agree with you there.

You just need to get more than half of your fellow country-people to agree with you and then I wish you all the best.

@BlueBellsArePretty less desperation to “keep Scotland” and more that most in Scotland show little sign of having moved from their 2014 position
Almost a decade of SNP grievance lingering and shockingly poor govt in Holyrood hasn’t persuaded No voters that they offer a sensible economic case for change.

Voting yes is not voting for the SNP.

Of course, you're under no obligation. But you very obviously cannot challenge my assertion that there is no democratic right to secession in international law and politics.

You can try an Ad Hominem attack all you like, but it really doesn't change my argument to you. It's completely fantasy to think independent sovereign states such as the UK, USA, Germany, France, Spain, Italy and many more cannot block secessionist aims.

They can and they have. Germany did it in 2017 as I showed, for example. Spain and France continue to block their own secessionist movements democratically and legally.

Likewise, "a vote for the SNP is not a vote for another referendum" said by Sturgeon. 🧐

Let's turn this on it's head.

How many rUK residents would be happy to have SNP candidates stand in their constituency, and tell them they're too stupid to understand their own nation and Scots know better?

How many other countries in the world permit political parties based in other nations to stand in their elections?

Would Germany, for example, be delighted to have, say, French politicians from French political parties stand in their elections whilst telling them they have no idea how to run their country and should defer to the 'brilliance' of French political/social norms and 'just like it' because that's how it's done.

This is what happens in Scotland and has done so for decades now. Anglo-centric parties retitle themselves 'Scottish' this and 'Scottish' that but their HQs are in London, their masters are in London, and their policies are driven by matters of importance to London.

Of all the countries who have taken their right to govern themselves away from London control, how many have begged to return to English control?

Why do people believe Scotland is uniquely incapable of governing itself when much smaller, with less natural resources etc., countries manage perfectly well?

Nice try! But that's a blatant misunderstanding of the situation, the GFA and my argument.

International law states there is NO democratic right to secession AND that the power to consent to it is wholly within the sovereign government.

In the case of Northern Ireland, the UK Government has had that policy since 1920 due to the threats of coercion of "The Black North" by the Nationalists. Northern Ireland, unlike Scotland, England and Wales, is a special case. GB has zero terrorism problem and so Northern Ireland is NOT a precedent for them. We are an EXCEPTION.

But you didn't undermine my point at all since the UK Government consents to it freely. There is nothing in international law that obliges it to do so.

Indeed, the GFA has already been changed previously and any or all of its contents can be changed by the UK. After all, the GFA makes it clear Northern Ireland is an INTEGRAL part of the UK AND that the UK Government retains FULL Sovereignty.

But there is no democratic right to secession except by consent of the sovereign power. Indeed, Westminster can and has stepped in to enact power in Northern Ireland for decades. It is still the case that Westminster is the Supreme Authority and Legislator over Northern Ireland. A fact Irish nationalists and Republicans could not get away from.

Hence, only the UK via its Secretary of State has complete control over any referendum on Northern Ireland's constitutional status. And it doesn't have to make the criteria explicit either!

Try again....

And, needless to say, there is NO such provision in the Scotland Act, @1dayatatime. It's a logical fallacy known as Non-sequitur to argue the NI Act and the GFA applies to Scotland since it doesn't follow.

What a ridiculous argument. Most UK political parties represent seats across Great Britain. That's pretty normal as it's all within the same country. Sometimes they've been in coalition with parties from Northern Ireland. We have had Scottish Prime Ministers, and Welsh Prime Ministers. Gordon Brown was not some English-backed fifth columnist planted in Kirkcaldy. If the Scottish people in his constituency didn't like him, they wouldn't have elected him.

It's important to remember too that a land border did exist in NI for many years, and that despite the OP's belief that this only affects major roads, in reality the minor roads which crossed it were severed - bridges across rivers dismantled.

If Scotland wishes to join the Customs Union alone, there will be a hard border with the rest of the UK, with resources concentrated upon the A roads, motorways and railways, while the B roads and unclassified roads get closed.

They wouldn't vote for him today.

Labour has secured one (ONE) MP in Scotland.

Fortunately for Labour and the other English parties Scotland has a progressive PR voting system, and those who 'prefer' English- to Scottish-centric politics are proportionally represented at our parliament. Which is, imo, entirely right and appropriate.

I firmly believe similar proportionality in Westminster would have prevented so many of the English-centric disasters over the past few decades at least.

Why do people believe Scotland is uniquely incapable of governing itself when much smaller, with less natural resources etc., countries manage perfectly well?

Hmmmm, the new parliament building ......... the trams in Edinburgh............the ferries .........shocking money wasting. Where I live the potholed roads are like a third world country's.

To be fair, it's just reinforcing why Scotland, as a nation, needs to go it alone. Reading through these posts confirms it. No-one, yet, has answered the question I posed in an earlier post, if we are so dependant on the rest of the UK and such a bloody drain, let us go....

And yet, the SNP continue to dominate Scottish politics. Funny that....

How much will the upgrade at WM cost Scots?

Btw, the new parliament building and associated costs were under the watch of a London-centric party. 😉

How much did the extended links in London (the already best served area of the entire UK) cost Scotland?

Ferries - Chris Grayling 😂

Your view of 'wasting money' may well be an actual life-line to others less fortunate.

Potholed roads? Unique to Scotland? The worst in the UK?

Indy is the big political question in Scotland. There is the SNP on one side and Labour and Tories on the other, and smaller parties in between. It’s a first past the post system. It’s obvious why the SNP keep getting voted in.

'if we are so dependant on the rest of the UK and such a bloody drain, let us go....'

Well, reading some of the comments above some people would be happy enough to see the back of us....

The economics are incredibly important but there's a lot more going on too, cultural, historical, political, security, standing etc etc. To those wanting indepedence these seem unimportant. To the rest of us, quite the opposite.

Scottish elections use the additional member system not fptp. A system that was supposed to ensure the snp never gained a majority and yet they win a majority at Scottish elections too.

Yet .... they also keep getting voted in our PR voting system too ....

You live in Scotland and you're ignorant of your own voting system? Shame on you!

I believed Scots are much more switched-on to our political landscape than that.

The English are right - we're too stupid to govern ourselves.

I'm away to phone Nicola and tell her the game's a bogey. 🙄

Sorry which part is untrue?

The bit about how UK revenue is recorded makes it impossible to properly apportion revenue generation to a specific region of the UK?

The bit that says any quoted deficit of an independent Scotland is based on guess work and cannot be considered factual?

The bit about how the union favours England over the other home nations?

Cause I can assure you that none of that is untrue.

I never said anything about potential difficulties that could occur post independence, I'm sure there are many. But a nation as rich in resource and industry as Scotland will not fail where other less generously resourced small independent nations have succeeded. To suggest we would is as insulting as it is condescending.

At this point the UK is an utter shit show, national debt is running away rampantly, inflation growing and growing, living standards plumiting, public services cut to the bone and about to be cut even more, families struggling to put roofs over their heads and food in their children's bellies, the elderly freezing in their crumbling homes, and the rich getting richer and richer.

The union is like a burning ship, with a hole in the Hull, an insane crew, a captain who has set a course for the edge of the world, and where the majority of the passengers are hiding below deck pretending it's all ok.

At this point the only logical thing to do is launch one of the life boats and strike out for safety alone. Sure the journey to safety might be a bit choppy but it's 100% better than staying in the cursed ship HMS Union.

It's not FPTP, it's a system designed to prevent parties getting majorities or close to it, and yet the SNP - with indyref2 front and centre in their manifesto - keep winning.

People can deny it all they like but there is undoubtably a desire for another vote on leaving the uk.