To think Scotland should become independent?

[antelopevalley]

As life continues to get worse in the UK, it is time for Scotland to go independent. We need to build a forward-looking country that invests in its future, rather than the backward-looking country the UK has become that prioritises the rich. It is time for Scotland to separate from the UK and become that country.

Michellexxx: You are upset about brexit, and so you want to leave another Union and so, likely, suffer similar (if not worse) economic woes. You are upset about the divide from Europe, and so want to leave the uk. It has been horrid, and yet somehow this will be better?

Independent Scotland in the EU makes sense and is desirable to many people and not only for economic reasons. The issue isn't JUST that Scotland didn't get something most of its people wanted, it's that whenever Scotland's needs and goals are different from those of the larger UK there is no way for Scotland to progress or even be heard. Back in 2016, a Scottish MP requested a discussion on the floor of the HoC about a potential amendment to the EU Referendum bill addressing what would happen if the different constituent countries of the UK voted differently on Brexit. He was summarily refused on the grounds that the referendum was advisory only and there was no need to plan for something that couldn't happen. In retrospect, people understandably see that as bad faith. After the Brexit vote, the Scottish Government convened a panel of experts to brainstorm and research ways for the UK to stay in the single market after leaving the EU, and ways for Scotland to stay in or associated even if the UK left. Everyone thought the UK government completely ignored this, as they never acknowledged even having received it, until the ideas started popping up in their plans ... for NI.

Using the pound for 10 years and having the Bank of England set I interest rates and control the value of the currency we’re using, but we would have no influence over any of this as an independent nation.

Who has suggested this course of action? The most likely scenario in 2014 was to continue to use the local Pound as a separate currency (as Ireland did until it joined the Eurozone in 2000), initially pegged to Sterling but able to be floated once stability permitted. Using Sterling unilaterally was never a good option, now it is unworkable as Scotland intends to apply to join the EU and if it is treated as a potential new member and the current requirement to commit to joining the EZ stands, it cannot use a non-EU currency long-term.

HappyLittleChicken: So if Scotland did become independent, would we need to have checkpoints on all roads from England to Scotland? Would they block some off and just have major ones or would we have free movement?

Ahead of the 2014 referendum, the plan was for (a hypothetical independent) Scotland to join the Common Travel Area (CTA), so borders would be open in a similar way as the land border between the UK and Ireland. It was assumed there would also have been Freedom of Movement with iScotland eventually in the EU or at least in the Single Market, likely with some temporary arrangement at the beginning. UK and Ireland have (mostly) managed this in spite of Brexit.

Marshabradyo: If Remain had won I’d expect Leave to accept it as I have the Brexit vote. Farage went on record before the vote saying he'd have begun campaigning immediately for another vote to leave the EU. Had the UK stayed in the EU, any UK party could have put an EU referendum in its election manifesto at any time, as the Conservatives did in 2015 and as the SNP put an independence referendum in their manifesto for the Holyrood elections of 2016 and 2021.

Scarfymcscarface: the majority of Scottish people voted to stay in the union and that tells you all you need to know about the feelings of those of us who live here. Self-determination of people is a process, not a one-time event. While there's no law or agreement to govern Scotland's use of independence referendums, the Good Friday Agreement sets out timescales and conditions for a(nother) Irish reunification referendum and states that there must be a full seven years between votes. Why should Scotland be held to a different standard?

Jaffacakeorisitabiscuit: no-one in Scotland voted for Brexit at all... Plenty of people in Scotland (1,018,322) voted to leave the EU, just not a majority. No one in Scotland voted to leave the Single Market, which has happened purely at the whim of a Westminster government.

CrappyJob: There have been three general elections since 2014. Three. Why are people not saying no to another because the decision has already been made? Sunak and Truss both said no to another! But multiple referendums on the same general question have precedent; Scotland and Wales each voted twice before opting for their own national parliaments/assemblies, for example.

I'm not missing that at all.

The point is that unionists are opposed to asking the question, not just independence itself. If they are so confident they can make a good case for not breaking up the uk they should be chomping at the bit, yet they aren't. Funny that.

Scotland DOES cost the UK more than it puts in. People have literally provided facts and statistics on this thread to back it up.

Funny how the people claiming Scotland DOESN'T take more money than it brings in don't seem to have any evidence or proof of their statements.

Sunak and Truss both said no to another!

Only because there has been a huge number of people calling for another one... Of course the person at number 10 won't want another when the polls are not in their favour!

I didn’t want Brexit but I can see why the campaign was successful. Promising change for the better based on emotion not economics is a strong pull. It’s only after the division and difficulty becomes a reality.

But before this Scotland voted to remain part of the uk. Then voted in the brexit referendum.

So the majority of people still wanted to be part of the uk and the brexit vote stands because of that. We could break down regions in England and have them whining that they didn’t get what they wanted and so want to have an independent govt away from the other area who did.

You’re arguing against democratic voting, just because you don’t like the outcome.

Have a read and see if you still think Scotland is funding England and if the snp have any kind of credible offering.

www.these-islands.co.uk/publications/i377/gers_2021_a_deep_dive.aspx

www.these-islands.co.uk/publications/i374/scottish_politics_in_the_grip_of_a_fact_denial_epidemic.aspx

I’m guessing you’re trying to say there’s a younger demographic. But if you look at our new world population graph you will see the issues of an aging population. Although Tbf in Scotland our terrible record on health might not be on par with others..

And yet social care and the issues that come with, a lack of growth or centre for business in Scotland doesn’t seem to matter. It seems it will be magically sorted by the pure hopefulness that all of us who voted no have been blinded by.

amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/oct/17/independence-will-rid-scotland-of-uk-economic-chaos-says-nicola-sturgeon

Nicola Sturgeon heard confirmed in the economic prospectus that sterling would have to be used for as long as necessary..
As in, she doesn’t really know and so it’s a leap of faith. Great.

Depends. If you believe that:

Countries should have the power to determine their own destinies
They should be able to make all their own laws and determine how they are applied
They should be able to raise and spend all their own taxes without interference in how they are spent.
Everyone who is elected is directly accountable to the electorate on how the country is governed and run

Lets face it, the UK is an absolute bag of shite and I can’t work out why anyone, least of the Scottish and Northern Irish want to be governed by that absolute bag of dicks in power. Why are English people making laws that Scottish people have to follow? Laws that aren’t necessarily in their interests and don’t benefit them.

You are since you framed it as "Why are some people so keen to deny a country the right of self-determination?" implying Scotland as a whole is in favour.

Not only are people divided on the question of the constitution, but they're very divided on when such a referendum might be held too.

As for the rest of your post, that's just ridiculous circular reasoning and it's completely logically invalid. On the contrary, it's up to the Nationalists to persuade enough people to support IndyRef2.

Not for the Unionists to do so. Unionists are well within their rights to refuse to support such a move.

Remember, there is no right to secession in international law and politics.

But a lot of Scottish people would call themselves British, as would English people. And so, your personal nation isn’t distinction isn’t felt by the majority of people.

I’m British. I live in the part of the UK that is Scotland but I am British. I love Britain. All of it. The Lake District, Pembrokeshire, Norfolk, Dumfriesshire, Giants Causeway, the lot of it. It’s a wonderful country! Yes it’s run by some absolute turds just now, but so is Scotland and I have faith that the public will over turn both parliaments in time. There’s a lot of people just like me.

First part of your post applies to SOVEREIGN states which England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are definitely not.

Only the UK is a sovereign state so it already has the right in international law and politics to prevent secession in order to protect its territorial integrity.

Under international law, Scotland and others are only entitled to devolution and certainly not unilateral declarations of independence. Hence, there is nothing undemocratic or illegal in the UK Government saying no to IndyRef2.

Second part.....which laws are English people making that Scottish people have to follow?!

We have devolution in Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and London. Those parts of the UK have the power to make their own laws in accordance with the devolution settlement. The UK Parliament remains the supreme authority and can step in whenever necessary, but usually does not. The UK has reserved powers - Constitution, Defence and the Economy are three examples of reserved powers.

I don't think you understand how it all works otherwise you wouldn't have typed the above.

The last thing they want is independence, they know it wouldn't work but are savvy enough to make a very good living out campaigning for it.

There is a fundamental difference between individual constituencies and an entire country.

Not one region in Scotland voted for Brexit. Not a single one, and yet here we are suffering the inevitable from the inevitable disaster it has been.

You seem to be confusing a Home Nation with a country - Scotland voted in 2014 to remain in the same country: the UK.

Not one region anywhere in the UK voted for or against Brexit, because it was a referendum of individuals, not regions or constituencies.

If you're referring to the locations where all of those individual voters happened to be located, then with your terminology, London - the economic powerhouse of the whole UK and a way higher population than the whole of Scotland - voted to remain; but they didn't get what 'they' (if we were pretending that it was a regional vote) wanted - because democracy.

Britain is unusual in being an island.

That's a very dismissive, commonly-Anglocentric way of looking at things. Yes, geographically, 'Great Britain' is one island, but the UK - the country we're discussing here - is thousands of island, the vast majority of them in Scotland.... where you live.

Many of which have felt utterly overlooked and betrayed by the Scottish government, in spite of NS's insistences that Scotland knows best how to run Scotland for the good of ALL of the Scottish people.

What an absolute hate filled shitshow of a thread. To summarise people gleefully stating 'we're too wee, too poor and too stupid' to be independent.

As a Scot the absolute arrogance of the 'oooh you don't have succession rights lol' 'oooh you have such high drugs deaths lol' posts makes me sick. It is attitudes displayed here that push more people towards independence.

Let's be honest the reasons given why Scotland ought to remain are not benevolent.

Bollocks:
I can confirm that there is currently no water supplies being diverted,
piped or channelled to England from Scotland from Scottish Water.
From Scottish Water themselves in a 2018 FOI response.

Would the oil be the same oil that the SNP/SGP government wants to ban the extraction of?

100% agree. We are always seeing comments on here about anti English the Scots supposedly are but the comments on these threads can be awful and condescending.

Scotland voted to remain in the UK in 2014 largely on the premise that it was the only way to remain part of the EU. How did that work out?

Scotland is a country. It's defined as a country and recognised internationally as country. London is not, this is not a difficult distinction to grasp.

The fact is that Scotland voted overwhelmingly to remain in the EU and yet... yeah. Democracy indeed.

I implied no such thing. I am fully aware that people are divided on the question which is why it is so important to, y'know, find out the answer in an official way as possible.

And no, it's not circular reasoning to ask why, if the unionists are so confident they would win a referendum which would put the matter to bed for far longer this time round, they are so unwilling to do. To not ask the question at all is very simply anti-democratic and oppresive.

I absolutely agree with you. I do not find something that makes me any different from relatives living down south. Our ideals, values and way of life is extremely similar. So I struggle with this niche nationalism that the snp have managed to brainwash people with.

But that isn’t true. I, and many others voted to remain in the UK, to be in the UK. It had nothing to do with the EU.

The people who try to push this stance tend to be those who voted for independence, and so would have no real idea the reasons people voted against independence.

People stating facts really isn’t hate filled. It’s reasoning based on information taken from reputable sources.

Some people will base decisions based on faith, many others will not. And I fear that for that reason, those who make decisions based on those distinctions, will never be able to agree on points. Or, apparently, discuss something without a contemptuous tone.