General election tomorrow - who do you vote for?

[IaminRome]

I'm so sick of this government and reading a lot of the posts on here, it feels like on the one hand, so are lots of people, but there are also lots of other people who are very sceptical about labour or lib dem or greens. Added to which, there are so many issues at the moment, I know there's a lot of GC and what makes a woman, that is particularly important at the moment, and cost of living, private rentals, the environment, etc etc

So knowing what you know about the parties, if there was a general election tomorrow, who would you vote for..

YABU - Tories
YANBU - Labour
Comment for a third option

I used to be green, but I'm so not sure any more. So I think I'd vote labour, to stand best chance of keeping Tories out. (What I'd really like to vote for is a more representative government)

It's relevant as long as you are able to define what a woman is though, no?

Huh? How is this an "almost blanket refusal to support women's rights"?

Are you always this disingenuous?

I am pro choice but I do not know how I would vote on the issue of telemedicine. I would want to listen to the debate before making my decision.

People who think the answer to these questions is obvious scare me with their lack of critical thinking.

On the issue of buffer zones, are anti abortion protesters outside clinics an actual issue in the UK? I know the US is full of deranged nutbags who send pipe bombs to clinic staff and have nothing better to do all day than stand outside abortion clinics with placards saying you're going straight to hell, but the UK isn't quite the same culture, is it? Again, perhaps persuasive arguments were made in favour of local councils - who have the power to impose buffer zones - retaining the ability to make that decision, having regard to the specific circumstances in the location in question.

Personally I think all abortions should take place in hospitals. What would people do then, protest outside A&E?

The current Minister for Women says things like "Babies born at 18 weeks go on to live full lives just like the rest of us" so I wouldn't be confident that she knows what anything is to be honest.

I mean, that's wrong, but it's less wrong than "women have penises", isn't it?

By the way, there is only one EU country which allows abortions for non medical reasons after 18 weeks. In most European countries it is around the 12-14 week mark. In Malta it is banned completely.

More than 100,000 patients , according to BPAS research, were subjected to anti-choice harassment while attending an appointment in 2019.

And the government review on the topic got more than 2500 submissions.

And did you watch the parliamentary debate on it?

What’s that got to do with your assertion that it never happens here? Clearly it does, 100k women in one year is horrendous yet none of the leadership candidates would vote for measures to prevent it.

And did you watch the parliamentary debate on it?

I can't remember.

I just remember that it was an issue, there was a review, and a vote and lots of top Tories either abstained or voted against.

And I logged that info in my brain under "women's rights and the Tories"

I didn't say "it never happens here". Why do you persist in lying?

I asked whether it was a big problem in the UK.

The reason I asked whether @verdantverdurewatched the parliamentary debate is because I didn't, I don't consider myself to be particularly well informed on this topic, and I would want to be better informed before either casting a vote on it myself or judging someone else for the way they voted.

It is shockingly irresponsible and childish to make up your mind about an issue in such a black and white way without having even heard the opposing arguments. I would like to know what the opposing arguments were.

When I was 22 and at law school, my flatmate, who was a 5th year medical student, snuck me into a debate about euthanasia and the right to die. Bearing in mind this debate was aimed at final year medical students who were going to be working as doctors in a few months' time, and who you would think should already be reasonably well informed about the arguments for and against. Before the debate they had a vote, and two thirds of the students were in favour of legalising euthanasia. Then there was an hour long debate with two speakers in favour and two speakers against, and at the end they had another vote. Two thirds of the students then voted against legalising euthanasia. That experience taught me that you shouldn't make your mind up about an issue, particularly an ethical one, without first listening to both sides of the argument.

It's relevant as long as you are able to define what a woman is though, no?

No. Absolutely nothing in that document ceases to be positive if workers other than those biologically born female are also protected. For example legislation supporting and protecting carers / part time workers benefits both sexes but a greater proportion of females than males. I am fiercely in favour of protection of all employment rights but as a group women are more vulnerable.

I don't disagree with that, but all that document really does is outline some rights and protections afforded to EU citizens.

Are you suggesting that we should be more afraid about what the Tories might do now that we are out of the EU, but have not actually said they will do, than we are about what Labour have actually said they will do?

Because by that logic Labour might make saying trans women are not women a crime punishable by up to 20 years in prison.

I would spoil my paper. There isn’t any political party that would get my vote.

Are you suggesting that we should be more afraid about what the Tories might do now that we are out of the EU, but have not actually said they will do, than we are about what Labour have actually said they will do?

Yes, we should be very afraid of the motivations of the Tory party in their incessant push for a hard Brexit and what their mates / senior business leaders have said in relation to worker rights. The Tory party has continuously proved itself to self-serving above anything else.

well I have voted for the SMP for sometime , but after the camper van , lost money scandals they won’t be getting my vote, then I thought I would vote Labour, but not now they say they will stop all new North Sea Oil development I won’t vote for them, will need to see what the Lib Dem’s come up with. As my dh says how do u know a politician is lying , his mouth is open. It’s all just a shambles!!

SNP not SMP

So the bits about motherhood and breastfeeding should apply to men as well? Or do women have special needs and rights as they give birth?

Labour think that TW are women - should they be afforded these rights too? Or do you think that real women would be overlooked in favour of TW as they can't do the messy giving birth stuff and won't need maternity leave?
Defining sex clearly MATTERS and Labour will muddy the water to women's huge disadvantage.

Also I knew that this document must have been written some time ago as they would never refer to mothers/breastfeeding now as this is deemed transphobic. The TUC is no friend to women and they would doubtless by 'birthing people' in any new document.

So the bits about motherhood and breastfeeding should apply to men as well? Or do women have special needs and rights as they give birth?
FFS

It is shockingly irresponsible and childish to make up your mind about an issue in such a black and white way without having even heard the opposing arguments. I would like to know what the opposing arguments were.

What legitimate opposing argument could there possibly be to a measure to prevent women being harassed because they want to terminate a pregnancy? It’s neither irresponsible nor childish to have a view on such a clear cut issue. As someone who with such strong gender critical views and no interest in discussing an opposing view, I’d have thought you’d understand that.

The opportunity to vote is all we have. If you decline to endorse any candidate you have no right to complain about any aspect of government, regardless of how you may feel on any given subject. It's the only system we have, and as someone famous once said 'democracy is the worst form of government, apart from all the others that have been tried'. So vote, for someone, it's all we have.

I don't know. As I said, I'd like to actually hear the opposing argument before I decide how legitimate it is.

As I have done on the trans issue, in fact.

It's the difference between having an informed opinion as opposed to an uninformed one.

But not afraid of the motivations of Labour in their apparent determination to erase women?

You are perilously close to saying we should be afraid of the motivations of the Tories because they are the Tories but trust Labour because they are Labour.

But not afraid of the motivations of Labour in their apparent determination to erase women?
’Erasing woman’ is hyperbolic nonsense.

I don't see there can be an opposing argument in the issue of harrassing women outside abortion clinics. No matter what you do or say, however politely you do or say it, you will be interfering with a woman at low ebb - and you will be utterly disrespecting her right to take a decision over what she does with her own body and her own life. It's always a bad thing to do. It's a worse thing to do if you are also a woman. It should simply not be permitted. Nobody gets harrassed if they're going to have their appendix out, so why should it be acceptable for a woman wanting an abortion? Women's rights, right there.

Do we think there'll be more spoiled ballots in the next General Election then?

It's usually a fraction of a percentage point per constituency isn't it?

An average of around 100 votes per constituency?

How many do we think it needs to be to make any kind of impact?

The definition of the word woman is being redefined to include males. We have no word to describe ourselves. That is pretty much what erasure looks like I would say.