To not be fobbed off with "data protection" as an excuse?

[KER90]

Have name changed for this just in case it's identifiable.

DS is 6 years old and in Year 1. Last week he was attacked by another child, who is in year 2. He was left with marks around his neck and a mark and lump on his head. DS doesn't know the other child's name, he's not in his class (mixed y1 & y2) and he's not even sure if he is in the other mixed class or the year 2 only class.

DH has been to speak briefly to the head today as he wants to know what the school have done about it as all we were told on the day of the incident was that the other child had "been dealt with". She tried to fob him off with "data protection" as an excuse for not being able to tell us what they have done. Just that it had been "severely dealt with".

Now, I think this is just a vague response in order to avoid admitting they've done sweet FA. Hoping that we go oh okay no worries and just forget about it. It's not giving out personal or identifiable information and as above, we don't even know who the child is. Surely when it comes to safeguarding, they should be able to tell parents what measures they are putting in place to protect their children? The way in which DS was assaulted, is, in my opinion, not the kind of thing you do as a first time offence, it is serious and if I had done that to another adult, I would be arrested and probably jailed. Just because they are under the age of criminal responsibility, it doesn't mean they should do nothing about it. If it's not dealt with now, who knows what that child will go on to do in the future.

"Severely dealt with" is also surely a matter of opinion? They may think it's a severe punishment, but I might not, and vice versa. For example has the child been "told off" or "lost certain privileges" or has he been suspended? Bit of a difference.

We are going back in on Friday for a more formal chat and DH has told the head that he wants answers to his questions and we are not going to let it go until we are satisfied with the response. She seemed very flustered and didn't quite know what to say, which tells me that she knows she can't bullshit her way out of this situation with her usual tactics.

Thankfully, DH is, shall we say, very assertive, but does anyone with inside knowledge of this type of thing have any advice?

Your suggestion that you want to check it is in your view proportionate is ridiculous. You do not make the rules or run the school. You do not know the child or his / her abilities or level of understanding. You do not know the child's family circumstances or what is going on in that child's life. All these are relevant factors. I think you should maybe move school because you and your dh are embarrassing yourselves at the moment.

What are you going to do then if it doesn’t meet your expectations? Demand they are punished again? Will you be able to make a fully informed decision when you don’t know all of the details?
Your child was hurt which is awful but that doesn’t give you the right to check you agree with the punishment. The behaviour policy will have been followed. That is all you need to know and that going forward, your child will be safe.

I imagine one of the reasons for non disclosure is so that the child and/or parents can't pursue the matter outside of school.

If you find out what sanctions have been applied, you could tell your child. That then gets gossiped about at school, word gets around, other parent find out, takes offence etc etc.

It's keeping things contained and handled to avoid escalation.

So you've managed to come to conclusion that my husband is an arse and a bully, because I said he's assertive and won't back down or be fobbed off with none answers? How does that make him an arse?

Being assertive means asking the question clearly and understanding the remit or context of what the other person can deliver.

You have argued all through this thread against what people are telling you, and you still fail to understand what the school can and cant disclose to you

You mentioned your husband 'not taking no for an answer', that turns him into someone who is agressive. The answer isnt going to be any different to what has been said here. Its none of your business what sanctions or punishment was given to the child your business is only that of what safeguards are in place to protect your child from the other child.

Someone else made a very good point, carry on if you want a failed relationship with the school with the two of you looking like bullies who cant work professionally with staff.

Embarrassing ourselves because we've had 1 brief conversation with the head about what happened, asked a few questions that we're not happy with the answers, and arranged a formal chat later in the week? How is that embarrassing?

I am not a weak or unconcerned parent for understanding that I can not know about the outcomes of another parents child.
There is a massive difference between assertive and aggressive, refusing to back down because the answer doesn't not suit your requirements is aggressive.

It doesn't matter what you want. Please listen to the posters that have been there, you need to find out and be reassured that this will not happen again to your child or someone else's. If you do not trust the school then home education or another school is the only option.

OP how would you feel if you were getting divorced and your son struggled with it and was aggressive.

You later find out the parents of the child he hurt were told the behaviour policy wasn’t followed in this instance due to the child being distressed by ‘events at home’ and the school are working with the parents to help your son adjust. This information is then verbally passed around a few of the parents who draw their own conclusions- but the school never named your son or said what the issues were!

My comment was concerned with the extent governors are involved with these matters - that they don't decide "punishments" and are only involved on a different level. Of course no governor would serve on a panel they had a personal involvement with.
I even avoid panels with kids from my village or in the same year group as DS just in case...

Hi op,I would also want to know the way this has been dealt with: if my child,god forbid,was attacked and had marks around their neck and a lump on their head,this is not a small thing. I'd want to know safeguarding going forward,but absolutely understand wanting to know the child who had done. this had been dealt with so mine or another child was unlikely to be significantly assaulted at school. I don't see how outlining the punishment for this type of incident breaks data protection. Interesting to know what others said about the behaviour policy,so would go that route.

So ok to hurt others if you're upset: yep,I'd want to know they were teaching my child their boundaries dint count if others are having a bad time

Unless EVERY child had the trip (to use your example) cancelled, then if you were told that the boy who hurt yours was the only one not allowed on the trip, that makes them identifiable. Data protection doesn't just cover name and address, in schools almost every piece of recordable data, including behaviour sanctions, are included.

OP you will not be told what punishment was given. Please focus on asking what measures are in place to protect your child.

As a PP said, the correct 'severity' of punishment really does depend on the child and their background. If the child is autistic for example, the consequences for him might not look like a punishment to you. For example, maybe the adults around him weren't supervising him closely enough to notice he was becoming overwhelmed in a busy environment, so he might be given extra support in dealing with emotions, being kind, appropriate responses when angry and what to do if he is struggling etc. He might be asked to apologise to your DC. It really depends on what his EHCP says his behaviour needs are, which you are not entitled to know about. All you would be told in this situation would be along the lines of "extra supervision will be provided where appropriate and the staff will try to ensure the pupils involved are kept separate at breaktimes. The child has been spoken to and is being supported with behaviour management". I work with autistic children and this is often how they have to be managed in situations like this. You have no right to know the medical background of the other child and its effect on how his behaviour is managed. A punishment which seems appopriately severe to you may actually have the effect of confusing and angering the child whose brain physically cannot cope with it, making their behaviour worse in the longer term.

Likewise, if the child is NT but lashed out because he has witnessed domestic violence at home, he might have what you see as a too mild punishment, combined with counselling etc, which again you would not be entitled to know other than "your child will be kept safe by there being more /better supervision on the playground and the children as a group being taught about being good friends etc in class"

@Winterthoughts

Here. I hope that answers some of your question about why they cant discuss the response to behaviour like this.

Of course, there could be none of the additional intervention going on but telling that would be setting a precedent to disclose responses and sanctions. They cant do that.

If your child had any of these additional interventions due to their behaviour, would you want the other parents being told?

All you need to know is how your child will be kept safe and also what they were told and how they were treated after the incident to ensure they felt secure and not blamed etc.

I understand that if there is SEN, poor home situation etc then they won't be giving me that sort of information.

I think you're all just running away with certain aspects of what I have said and being a bit rude now.

We absolutely can express and complain if we don't feel the schools actions are sufficient. We are not going to be demanding that they do X, Y or Z. Like I said, a slight telling off and told not to do it again doesn't cut it in my opinion (in normal circs).

We are not happy with the response that it's has been "dealt with" and want to know more. You have all made it QUITE CLEAR that we will not be told the exact punishment but I am not being robbed off with none answers and vague bullshit.

So you accept that they won't tell you, so what information do you want? What counts as a valid answer and not 'vague bullshit'?
Of course you can complain if you want to, the schools complaints policy should be on their website, I'd follow it to the letter.

You were informed on the day it happened and told then that the other child had been identified and dealt with.

Your dh went back to speak to the head on another day as he was unhappy and asked for more information on the punishment. He was told he was not entitled to that information. Many people on here have tried to explain why it is inappropriate for you and your dh to judge whether the punishment is right.
He then disliked this answer so told her he was coming back for another conversation where 'he wanted answers to his questions'. Sounds quite bullying to me. He might not like her answer but he was given one.

You are being unpleasant and are not hearing what has been said to you.
You are not entitled to judge whether this was a suitable punishment or not. You are entitled to ask how they will keep this child away from your son. You are also entitled to try another school. You should however realise that kids do sometimes hurt others both verbally and physically. This will happen in any school your child attends. Schools do what they can to prevent incidents and to educate the children in how to interact and behave with others. Not all kids have the same social and emotional skills as others.

I hope your understanding has improved now OP and that it can help you when you have the meeting next week. You also need to explain everything you've learnt on here to your DH so that he isn't "assertive" in the wrong way, if you see what I mean...
You mention safeguarding in your OP. That's your question. How is your child being kept safe?
I really don't know how you've decided that being "severely dealt with" is actually just some wishy washy naughty step thing. You really need to reframe how you see this.
It will be the same throughout your DCs time at school so you'd better get used to it.

So what answer would you want?

Let's say the child has witnessed violence and is now being violent so the achool have contacted social services and a psychologist will be involved with the child. In addition, the child will spend some time in the nurture room rather than in the full playground with the other kids.

If they told you "the child will be in the nurture room for a while" would that be enough for you? Because it doesn't seem enough out of context, but they cannot give you the context.

You've had this explained over and over. So what is it you actually want them to tell you? What would be enough?

Why dont you believe that the achool know what they are doing and it has been handled?

What exactly is it that you want to know? What questions will you be asking during this formal chat?

If it's that you want to know more about how it's been dealt with, it doesn't sound like you'll get a specific and detailed answer to that. It'll probably be along the lines of "appropriate action has been taken to deal with the child in question" and information about any measures they've put in place to prevent it happening again.

But you are still not getting that you will not be told more about the punishment / sanctions. That is not going to happen and would not happen in any school so you will have to accept it. Or homeschool I guess?
You have the right to be reassure that the behaviour policy is being followed, and to be told how they will ensure your child is safe at school. That is all. And that is all you need to know!

I'd just ring the police OP. Schools are fairly useless in dealing with bullying and violence between pupils, they're more concerned with covering their own backs.

We are not happy with the response that it's has been "dealt with" and want to know more. You have all made it QUITE CLEAR that we will not be told the exact punishment but I am not being robbed off with none answers and vague bullshit.

You can be unhappy with that response but you have no legal right to more information than that. It really is as simple as that. You can talk about "none answers". You can complain about "vague bullshit". Neither of them changes the fact that you have no right to more information about the punishment of the other child. Nothing will change that: no amount of meetings, no complaint to the governing body, not a subject access request for all data relating to your child (it will just be blacked out).

You aren't listening. You cannot get what it is that you want here. As such, you have two choices: trust the school and find a way to move on emotionally and mentally or don't trust the school and move your child.

Interesting that no one here has been rude to you, we have been assertive though in telling you what the facts are, nothing more, nothing less

You seem to feel that you're not going to be 'fobbed off' as you describe it, what does that mean, who do you think you will take your complaint to. The outcome will be the same

Also the data protection issue isnt just about the child being identified, its about not disclosing personal information to people who have no right to it and without the need to have it

Its like asking what interventions or sanctions another child might have for not following rules or doing their work effectively, that information is personal to the child

What would you do for example if the way the school have dealt with it is to change the child's 1-1 support or give them more time in a sensory room, etc

what then?

As a newly qualified teacher I was once party to a conversation between a head and prospective new parent. The parent objected to the behaviour policy, and the Head told them 'well perhaps this isn't the school for you'.

This is not some vague wishy-washy back of a fag packet policy op, it's the law.

Your child has been hurt in an incident at school which I agree is terrible, and shows that at some level there were gaps in supervision of the dc. Which you absolutely have recourse to address, and seek assurances that measures are put in place to prevent a repeat.

What you don't get to do, is decide if you think the punishment is suitably severe. They have a behaviour policy that you can ask for assurances was followed. There may even be circumstances as pp have given that mean this policy was not followed but with damned good reason (eg send, safeguarding issues for that dc). All you should be told is that policies were followed and measures in place to prevent a repeat. On repeat if necessary. Assertive husband or not.