To not be fobbed off with "data protection" as an excuse?

[KER90]

Have name changed for this just in case it's identifiable.

DS is 6 years old and in Year 1. Last week he was attacked by another child, who is in year 2. He was left with marks around his neck and a mark and lump on his head. DS doesn't know the other child's name, he's not in his class (mixed y1 & y2) and he's not even sure if he is in the other mixed class or the year 2 only class.

DH has been to speak briefly to the head today as he wants to know what the school have done about it as all we were told on the day of the incident was that the other child had "been dealt with". She tried to fob him off with "data protection" as an excuse for not being able to tell us what they have done. Just that it had been "severely dealt with".

Now, I think this is just a vague response in order to avoid admitting they've done sweet FA. Hoping that we go oh okay no worries and just forget about it. It's not giving out personal or identifiable information and as above, we don't even know who the child is. Surely when it comes to safeguarding, they should be able to tell parents what measures they are putting in place to protect their children? The way in which DS was assaulted, is, in my opinion, not the kind of thing you do as a first time offence, it is serious and if I had done that to another adult, I would be arrested and probably jailed. Just because they are under the age of criminal responsibility, it doesn't mean they should do nothing about it. If it's not dealt with now, who knows what that child will go on to do in the future.

"Severely dealt with" is also surely a matter of opinion? They may think it's a severe punishment, but I might not, and vice versa. For example has the child been "told off" or "lost certain privileges" or has he been suspended? Bit of a difference.

We are going back in on Friday for a more formal chat and DH has told the head that he wants answers to his questions and we are not going to let it go until we are satisfied with the response. She seemed very flustered and didn't quite know what to say, which tells me that she knows she can't bullshit her way out of this situation with her usual tactics.

Thankfully, DH is, shall we say, very assertive, but does anyone with inside knowledge of this type of thing have any advice?

I understand why you want to know, because it helps understand how seriously they have taken it, and therefore how put off the other little boy (remember the other child is not much older than yours) is likely to be.

But realistically, they don’t have to tell you and I don’t really know many schools that would…you have no rights in that respect. So getting your “assertive” husband to try to strong arm the head is unlikely to work, and her being ‘flustered’ in his eyes is probably more to do with his attempt to throw his weight around and less that she was “bullshitting”.

Unfortunately, you being a black and white person with no grey areas means nothing to the school either OP.

And yes, the child could potentially be outed, other children talk to their parents and parents talk amongst each other. You could identify the child from something like that.

OP I totally get where you are coming from, it must be so upsetting that your child was attacked in this way.

But I do think at some point you have to trust the school. Let's say they spell out what consequences were given to the other child. Do you then trust that they actually carried out the punishment? What if they're just telling you about a punishment in order to fob you off, but didn't actually do it? What if they dealt out a punishment but didn't do it as thoroughly as you think appropriate?

Do you see what I'm getting at? At some point, unless the school just hands the power over to you and allows you to enact vigilante justice on the other child, you have to trust that they are making the right judgment and doing the right thing.

Of course, you'd want to know what punishment was given, he harmed her child?

There's absolutely no chance that you will be told explicitly what sanctions were given to the other child. Zero. Black, white or rainbow coloured, data protection is the reason why, and is to protect every child in school. Even if it was your dc's best friend who did it, you wouldn't be told by the school.

You can expect an answer to the questions 'was behaviour policy followed' and 'what measures are in place to prevent a repeat and to keep my child safe'.

Strong-arming the head is not going to change her mind.

Thankfully, DH is, shall we say, very assertive

By that do you mean 'aggressive and bullying'?

The world has changed so much from when my children were at school. I actually got a written letter of an apology from the parents of the child that attacked mine and the school handed out the email address in order for them to send it. I mean it was all taken in the spirit of which it was intended but yeah it was quite a surprise when it dropped into my email inbox.

But it's a none answer. It's a complete and utter cop out. Are you telling me that if someone doesn't explain something properly to you or you don't understand something, that you just accept that? You don't ask more questions to fully understand the situation? They're telling me they've dealt with it, I want to know what that means, because to me, it means absolutely nothing.

I would know who the child was if DS could actually remember his name. It's just unfortunate that he doesn't as he's a year 2 and in one of the other classes. So the fact that I could find out from someone else is neither here nor there.

Ok but what information would they be giving me that is covered by data protection? Punishment is not personal information. Personal information is name, dob, address, phone number, up address etc. Something you can use to identify that person. Say just for example, that the child had to miss a school trip as a punishment, how would I be able to identify the child from that information?

Why do you care what’s happened to the other child as a consequence? That’s not your problem. Your problem is what the school are doing to keep your child safe and that’s the only thing that they’ll tell you about. It’s not up to you what an appropriate response for the other child is because you know nothing about them or their situation.

No, I mean, he won't back down and be fobbed off with non answers, especially when it comes to our children.

Safeguarding is separate to punishment.

What you actually need to know in order to determine if they can keep you child safe is what led to this happening (lack of supervision, for example) and what steps they are taking to rectify the problem.

If your DH was being "assertive" to the head, don't be surprised if there are two or three staff in your meeting rather than just the head. All saying the same thing. You do not have any right to know what punishment another child has received.

Thank you!! I'm sitting here in disbelief that so many people would be fine with just being told it's been dealt with and nothing more?

Honestly if another child attacked my child to the point that they were left with marks around their neck I would report it to the police. To hell with leaving it up to the school to deal with. They have already failed massively in their safeguarding responsibility.

Actually I think data protection does apply. I was reading up on it because of another thread recently, and if the information they give you could be combined with information obtained from elsewhere that identifies the child, then it would be a breach. So, to take an example, today they tell you the perpetrator received punishment X, tomorrow your child sees the person again, asks someone his name, and relays it to you, you know know the identity of a child who received punishment X.

I’d want to know, for sure. But I would also understand why they couldn’t tell me the details of something that is happening to another child.

No they will not tell you how its been dealt with as that's information about the other child. You can ask measures about keeping your child safe. I'd also be careful about your husband crossing boundary from assertive to threatening or bullying which may be why head became flustered.

I agree that it is an unsatisfactory non-answer though. If an adult had been convicted for an equivalent assault, the courts wouldn't be citing data protection while refusing to tell anyone what the sentence was. Presumably there is a specific exemption that allows the information to be public, when it's an actual criminal case.

They’ll have someone nominated to look after data, you could write to the office and request which aspect of GDPR would be infringed by you being told the punishment.

I would suspect they’d respond it’s not necessary to disclose this, one of the key principles is that you only use the data that’s absolute necessary to the business needs.

You could submit a freedom of information request to the school or trust if the office can’t answer as they might be more likely to have a Data Protection Officer who will give you the details of how this would infringe on the other childs’ GDPR protections.

As pps have said though, forget that kid’s experience, it’s the wrong q to be asking. What support do you want your kid to get: ask for that.

Because it is safe guarding and data protection. Say child is being abused and this has all come out because of this incident so you find out the punishment decide it isn't deemed severe enough in your opinion. Then would you expect to be told the reasons behind it?

I am a data protection consultant in education and personal data and in terms of data protection laws, the definition of personal data for the purposes of the law is whether the information put together would identify someone. As a PP pointed out, if you get given info about the punishment and then you hear on the grapevine from another parent for example that a year 2 child has missed a trip, to use your example, you ask the other parent to point that child out in the playground, then if your child recognises them and confirms it, the punishment information has indirectly identified them. If your child remembered the look of them then you would know who they are but you still wouldn't be entitled to the punishment information as Behaviour data is personal data. All you can do is find the Behaviour policy and ask if it has been followed.

They will not tell you what sanctions have been used on the other child.
That is policy in every school.

If you dont listen to what we are saying and accept it then you are going to have a very long long, difficult, aggressive and failing relationship with the school. You need to listen.

You can ask hypothetically what would be done and the teacher may give some info but that is totally dependent on how much this particular teachers follows the rule on not telling. They dont tell you what punishment has been taken.

My son had his pants pulled down in the toilets when he was 5 and his genitals fondled. I never asked about the other child. I only asked what they were doing to keep my son, and other children, safe. That is all you can ask.

It doesnt matter how much of a bully your husband is. If he sits in that office refusing to listen or leave until he is told, the you will find yourself banned from the school. Teachers will not put up with aggressive or threatening parents.

You have no right to know the sanctions. You can absolutely know how they are going to keep your child safe. That is all.

You can listen to what you are being told and work within policy to have a strong, productive relationship with the school or you can go in there and be "assertive" and find yourself with a failed relationship with the school and a refusal to engage in conversation with your aggressive husband.

Say for example, the punishment turned out to be that he was told not to do it again, and then spoken to about the importance of being kind and not hitting one another, is that an appropriate and proportionate response to him assaulting my child? He grabbed him by the throat, choked him and head butted him twice. That is violent behaviour from a 6 or 7 year old 😳

I'm not saying we want any say in what the punishment should be, but if we don't think it's appropriate or proportionate to the incident then we will complain via the correct channels.

There should be a safeguarding lead at the school. Arrange a meeting with them.
Ask to see the behaviour policy. You could also contact the governor who oversees safeguarding.
You need to be assured that the right action has been taken to protect your child and others.
To refuse to follow safeguarding policy will have a serious impact on the school .

@KER90 if you want a say on appropriate punishments you need to get on the governers’ board. Obv they’re not gonna take a steer from parents on an incident by incident basis it’d be chaos