To not be fobbed off with "data protection" as an excuse?

[KER90]

Have name changed for this just in case it's identifiable.

DS is 6 years old and in Year 1. Last week he was attacked by another child, who is in year 2. He was left with marks around his neck and a mark and lump on his head. DS doesn't know the other child's name, he's not in his class (mixed y1 & y2) and he's not even sure if he is in the other mixed class or the year 2 only class.

DH has been to speak briefly to the head today as he wants to know what the school have done about it as all we were told on the day of the incident was that the other child had "been dealt with". She tried to fob him off with "data protection" as an excuse for not being able to tell us what they have done. Just that it had been "severely dealt with".

Now, I think this is just a vague response in order to avoid admitting they've done sweet FA. Hoping that we go oh okay no worries and just forget about it. It's not giving out personal or identifiable information and as above, we don't even know who the child is. Surely when it comes to safeguarding, they should be able to tell parents what measures they are putting in place to protect their children? The way in which DS was assaulted, is, in my opinion, not the kind of thing you do as a first time offence, it is serious and if I had done that to another adult, I would be arrested and probably jailed. Just because they are under the age of criminal responsibility, it doesn't mean they should do nothing about it. If it's not dealt with now, who knows what that child will go on to do in the future.

"Severely dealt with" is also surely a matter of opinion? They may think it's a severe punishment, but I might not, and vice versa. For example has the child been "told off" or "lost certain privileges" or has he been suspended? Bit of a difference.

We are going back in on Friday for a more formal chat and DH has told the head that he wants answers to his questions and we are not going to let it go until we are satisfied with the response. She seemed very flustered and didn't quite know what to say, which tells me that she knows she can't bullshit her way out of this situation with her usual tactics.

Thankfully, DH is, shall we say, very assertive, but does anyone with inside knowledge of this type of thing have any advice?

Adding that - our concern really should be that of safety not of what punishment has been given.

A governor who receives a report of a safeguarding issue must report it to the lead safeguarding person at the school, chaos or not.

@KER90 you need to except that they are never ever going to tell you what the punishment was, the far more likely outcome is it they will come up with some excuse or reason as to why your child was head-butted by a seven-year-old.

however the truth is you shouldn’t care what the punishment as it’s utterly irrelevant the only thing that matters here is that you call the teachers to account as to how they are going to prevent this ever happening again and get it documented.

Since when does being assertive mean bully and aggressive

I understand how you feel but you will not be given details as to what has happened with someone else's child. You have no legal right to that information. It's not about being able to identify the child or not: it's about data only being shared when there is a legally-valid reason for doing so.

Asking about safeguarding is not the same as asking about punishments or consequences. You can ask about how the school will ensure they safeguard your child and the school will respond with any changes they have made to their practice as a result of this incident. They will not tell you about the punishment because punishments and the safeguarding of your child are different things.

Comparing this to an adult situation is not relevant and a bit of a straw man argument. If two kids under the age of ten did this outside of school then there would be no consequences for the child. The police might go have a word and they could speak with the parents but the child, if under 10, would not be held as criminally responsible for his actions.

You read the behaviour policy and you ask if it has been followed.

But really, the school will have taken this seriously. The other child's parents will be involved and there will be behaviours plans being put in place but you also need to realise that these are young children still settling into social situations and these things do happen more than you probably realise. This child is not some violent thug who needs to be publicly flogged. Your child will probably do something at some point, other children are going to do similar. There will be lots of pushing and grabbing and punching to come.

You need to toughen up a bit and be prepared to accept that this is part of life with kids. The school will be taking this in hand. But you dont get a say in the sanctions, nor do you need to know them.

I doubt you're going to listen though and your husband is probably going to cause more problems than the kids with his attitude. Good luck continuing a relationship with the school when you will not listen.

They should absolutely be giving you the background to the child l, even if they don’t identify them so you have context and then saying what actions they’ve taken as a result a) so that your child knows what has happened is unacceptable and the child has been dealt with fairly and b) so that they can give you the reassurances it won’t happen again by what controls they’ve put in place.

This happened to my DS when he was 9/10 and it took a very strong response from myself and DH including pulling our DS out of school and various escalations beyond head teacher to get a proper response that was appropriate for the level of violence (pushed to ground and throat / head jumped on). In our case there were serious ASN issues at play which was why I’d wanted reassurance what actions they were taking (other child not allowed to toilet at same time as my son even if it meant asking my son to wait a moment, separated for group activities, supervision of other child in playground etc).

I’m sorry this has happened and I hope you get a resolution. It’s horrible that you have to shout to be heard but I was glad we pushed and DS managed his other years in that school in relative peace, unfortunately the child just moved along to other children who’s parents weren’t as vocal but I felt I did everything I could.

I'm not saying we want any say in what the punishment should be, but if we don't think it's appropriate or proportionate to the incident then we will complain via the correct channels

But you can't know if it's appropriate or proportionate because you know nothing about the child!
They could be from an abusive home, SEN, and a million other different things that shape 6/7 year olds behaviour.

One punishment does not fit all. It's really, really none of your business

This is very much a safeguarding issue, this is the angle you should be addressing with the school. Data Protection is concerned with protecting the rights and freedoms of the Subject. The Subject in this case is the other child and they are not permitted to provide that personal data.

The Governing Board don't decide on punishments but are normally invited to be part of exclusion panels and appeals.

Ok but what information would they be giving me that is covered by data protection? Punishment is not personal information

"Dealt with" might include a change to the child's EHCP (more supervision/more time out of class/de-escalation when he's getting wound up, etc) which reveals he has SEND; or a conversation with the child's social worker, which reveals he and his family have a social worker; a referral to CAMHS, etc etc. Personal information isn't only identifying information, and the fact is you could easily find out who he is and join various dots.

I'm not saying we want any say in what the punishment should be, but if we don't think it's appropriate or proportionate to the incident then we will complain via the correct channels

So...you want a say in what the punishment should be then? Otherwise what's the outcome of your complaint?

I kind of get it, when my DS (also Y1) was roughed up by another kid a few weeks ago I felt absolutely raging. But they're children, and drawing comparisons with adults committing crimes doesn't fit.

Out of interest - what punishment would you be reassured by and feel is appropriate?

So, when the head tells you that they will not discuss sanctions or details of how the other child has been handled, which could include background info about family life, mental health issues, autism diagnosis, EHCP etc but they do tell you how your child will be kept safe and consider the conversation closed... will your assertive husband accept that and leave the school without fuss or aggression or threats of "taking it further"?

That is a good idea actually, discussing hypotheticals may be worth a try. Thank you for that.

Gosh that is absolutely awful what happened to your child. I would be livid.

I'm just shocked that the school won't discuss it, and that so many parents are totally ok with that.

Again, since when does assertive = aggressive?

Echoing everyone else, you don’t need to know what punishment was given out (although I understand why you want to). You do need to know what measures the school have put in place to prevent a similar incident happening again. Divert your energy towards making sure the school are following their published policies and leave the punishment angle alone.

How does someone not become a bully or aggressive if like you say he will refuse to back down? Unless his not backing down is sitting quietly and leaving when requested.

As someone who has to do safeguarding training, the school are correct in not telling you for both privacy and safe guarding reasons.

@GrimDamnFanjo agree RE exclusions but on reflection not super relevant to OP as I’m sure if an exclusion related to an incident involving a board member’s child that member would need to recuse themselves… so no, you really are unlikely to ever get to express your views on the punishment.

You need to be clear about what you are asking and not muddy the waters

YOu cant ask what sanctions/consequences/interventions are in place for the other child's behaviour

What you can ask about is what the school is actively doing to keep your child safe from the other child and data protection doesnt come into that.

You have absolutely no right to be told what has happened to the other boy. You should focus on what they will now be doing to keep your son safe.

There's a chance that knowing the nature of the punishment could indicate private information about the other child which you do not have a right to know about.

Hence why it won't be shared. Nor is it any of your business.

What exactly do you expect will happen if they tell you and you don't agree with the punishment?

They won't up the punishment to appease you nor should they. The education and care children receive while in school should not be subject to the opinions of unconnected adults.

You can ask for an account of what happened.

You can ask how they will keep your child safe.

That's it.

Or you can move schools but the same will apply there too.

It is literally my job to advise on these kind of issues and you seem to be ignoring my posts. It is not that parents 'don't care', it is that the school would be breaking the law by doing this. You talk of criminal law, which as others have pointed out won't apply due to their ages but there are other laws you can break, including data protection!

I understand your desire for information, but what difference does it actually make?

How they've dealt with it will depend on the circumstances of said child, any additional needs and/or background info that you aren't privy to.

Whether they've had a stern word, excluded the child for a few days, put them in isolation or contacted social services, what difference will that make to you? The child may have additional needs, have suffered a bereavement, have an abusive or chaotic home life... In some cases a heavy handed punishment might not be appropriate. Maybe this is the catalyst school needs to escalate existing concerns further. Whatever it is, they don't need to discuss this with you.

Your priority is how they safeguard your child to ensure it doesn't happened again. Will there be extra supervision at break times for example?

I would imagine she can say she dealt with it in line with the school's behaviour policy. The school will deal with the child according to their age and level of functioning. I would imagine they would have been told off for their behaviour and their parents would have been informed. It will have been explained that they hurt someone. I would imagine staff will be keeping a close eye on the child at playtimes. What else are you expecting? Public flogging? Twenty days isolation? This is at most a year 2 child. Ranting on about what would happen to an adult is irrelevant. This child is not criminally responsible. Your dh doesn't sound assertive, he sounds like an arse and possibly a bully. I hope the head tells him this in a polite 'assertive' way.

As PPs have said there may be sen or other factors. It's not the schools problem that you are incapable of understanding grey areas or that your husband is overly assertive/aggressive. You ask for a copy of the behaviour policy and ask if it is being followed. You ask how they are keeping your child safe. If your not happy look into moving schools but no school is going to give you this info. It's not up to you to decide if a punishment was acceptable and from what you've said you wouldn't be capable of doing so.

@KER90

You need to reframe this in your head. It isnt about just sanctions. Sanctions are very often linked to ongoing situations.

A child may have additional needs and have access to a nurture room or a support staff member. Part of the strategy for handling the violence may include moving them to the nurture room during lessons which they find the most frustrating. It may include bringing their support staff into the classroom to sit quietly just in case.

A child may come from a bad background and the behaviour is linked, so part of the response is involving outside agencies to support the parents and help the child outside of school.

Part of the response may include bringing in the educational psychologist to work with the child.

It isnt all "the child lost their break time and no school trips and sits on the naughty chair."

"Sanctions" are not just punishments. They go much deeper than that if necessary. To tell you about what they're doing, if any of those further internvetions are being used, would be to reveal very private information about a child. And you do not need to know if that child will have social services involvement or educational psychologist involvement or a support staff member following them around or anything else.

If they have any of that in place, it is not your business. Any punishment they can tell you wouldnt seem enough because they cannot tell you the additional support.

You need to realise that things dont happen in a vacuum. There may be lots going on. They will be handling it. But you dont need to know.