Is behaviour this bad in all schools now?!

[Growingmyhairout]

I am a supply teacher who's in a long term role but don't think I can deal with it.
I'm in a non core subject which doesn't help, one that pupils find difficult and don't have to do a GCSE in.
I was covering a 2 week sickness in one boys school, but couldn't have done anymore as behaviour was awful.
I'm now at what's been called a very challenging school. However I've walked past some other lessons and all kids are silent pretty much.
I've been here for a few weeks now so the kids know I'm not there just for a day or anything, yet no improvements.
I've been suggested to ring parents but if I did I'd be making 45 calls an evening which there is just not the time to do, especially for £110 a day gross.
I do give detentions, warnings etc. But it doesn't make much difference.
Some kids will just get up and walk out of your lesson when they feel like it. Or kids who aren't even in your lesson will turn up and sit in the room.
Coats on, phones out, earphones in, eating. When I tell them not to, some kids will listen but some will literally just ignore you. Swinging on chairs, shouting across the room, fighting, swearing.
Each lesson I send a few out to other classrooms which helps to an extent.
The worst are cover lessons though, as I'm used for cover as well as my own classes. Cover is an absolute nightmare.
I record everything but don't know what difference it makes.
Throwing things across the room, putting make up on. Answering me back very rudely.
Just all talking loudly and ignoring me. I refuse to shout over them as I've already got a hoarse voice from raising it.
I email heads of year, sometimes they will come in if they're not busy.
Some lessons are alright, but there's an insane level of disrespect.
As I said I've been here a few weeks now, how long is it going to take?
I've got a TA in all lessons which I'm really grateful about, but they don't seem to respect her much either.
We had an ok class this morning once the worst were removed, but had an absolutely horrendous year 7 group. She said she'd never seen a school like it.
I've been offered long-term, part time cover in another school. I'm tempted to go, but I'm thinking what's the point?
It's just going to be the same everywhere isn't it? I'm not expecting kids to sit in absolute silence for 5 hours a day but the behaviour is unacceptable. I'll be trying to speak and many students will just carry on having their own conversation.
I also feel like I'd be letting down the school who've even given me a TA when most other teachers don't get one.
I feel like a failure as a teacher. I think I've been firm but fair, but I don't think I can do this. Is behaviour really this bad in all schools?

I think a huge advertising campaign aimed at persuading all parents to value education might help, and at the same time top quality sure start specialist nurseries, nutrition and help for at risk mothers and babies, training for mothers and a way out shown to them.
It would take money but be paid back many times over.

Yes this is what is needed.

@ScrollingLeaves

What does training for mothers at risk and nurseries have to do with the quality of school education. They didn’t have those things before and schools weren’t as out of control in the classroom

When I last worked in a secondary school I had a TA who'd grown up in an African country. She told me she walked (shoeless) a considerable distance to school each day and loved every minute of it. Even as a child she was acutely conscious of how lucky she was to get a free education and looked up to her teachers. She was utterly baffled at the attitude of so many of the British teenagers at the school.

I agree with her. What has gone so horribly wrong? It's not just a matter of funding - it's something far more fundamental in terms of attitudes to education, teachers and, I suppose, authority figures in general.

Yes, nearly all.

About 25 years ago, I did supply teaching in an area which was considered rough. Pupils did much the same as you describe back then. It was a real eye-opener. Pupils just got up and left lessons. Others just sat in group and did nothing. Out of school seemed to be spent drinking and smoking etc.

The school also had security guards patrolling the building and grounds. I was meant to be there for two weeks but after being told to fuck off for the umpteenth time, I left in the second week.

The class sizes and the size of the school itself were far too big. Smaller schools with smaller classes could make the whole situation far more controllable. Then, the teachers could teach and the pupils could learn.

No, all secondary schools are not like this. I would profer that most secondaries are actually well run, well disciplined schools. For supply and new teachers there is always a difficulty until a reputation is established. The students need to understand that you will not put up with poor behaviour and that you will always follow up punishments. The senior team - heads of departments, heads of year - should pay special attention to supporting supply staff, as indiscipline in their lessons can affect other lessons. Every area has a school where discipline is not good, life for teachers can be hell, they move on quickly making more difficulties for the school. Avoid this school.

Every area has a school where discipline is not good, life for teachers can be hell, they move on quickly making more difficulties for the school. Avoid this school.

Depends where you live, obviously, but my area has a lot more than one school with very poor discipline.

There are a lot of parents who don't value education or have the standards of behaviour for their children that are needed if they are to learn and thrive at school. This has been going on for generations.

The situation isn't helped by weak SLTs. Many of the appointments are of staff who talk the talk. Those senior staff who are good and effective burn out or give up the struggle.

Well, no, speaking as a teacher with quite a bit of experience in the state, private, & international circuits.

Quite often in private schools, you get parents who feel that because they are paying a huge wedge, they'd quite like that to be reflected in top grades despite the fact that their kid is one who'd be getting MASSIVE support in a state school for their academic struggles & (usually consequent) behavioural issues.

We don't choose 'the brightest'. We take kids whose parents can pay. & if someone's dc5 is academically weak, bullying their peers & liable to tell teachers to fuck off - we would generally not want to rock the applecart & upset the parents of dc1-4, who are doing nicely & generating a tub of revenue.

'Private schools simply won't allow it' 🤣.

I've taught in the private sector for quite some years, with my dc having free places. They've benefited - genuinely - from amazing facilities & opportunities.

But the actual teaching? They would have been much better served, I suspect, attending a good comprehensive, where the quality of teaching is monitored rather closely.

Obviously, you need good behaviour to teach well. That's down to effective systems, culture & SMT/HOD support. & it works, or doesn't, regardless of what is going on outside the gates.

Most kids would like to learn. Also, most kids will dick about if that's seen as acceptable, THEN grumble that they aren't learning. Because they're teenagers with poor impulse control & peer status/relationships are everything.

Give them a fairly robust approach to poor behaviour, consistently followed up, & most dc will be hugely relieved.

Im not sure all private schools always “kind”. My friends year 10 has been involved in an underground “fight club” at our local private school!

I teach in a school where behaviour is generally good but they can be absolutely foul to supply. Try and support as much as possible but I really feel for supply teachers. We have noticed behaviour becoming much worse with Year 7 and 8 since the pandemic—apparently this has been noticed in all schools across the trust and has particularly impacted those with negative home lives or send.

What's more scary is this is the next generation... devolution.
Frightening

My daughter's schools both council run are not like that. I think the school has a big problem. You need to move for your mental health and career development if you havent got strict rules in place and the support of the head.

I Would ask the question "who here wants to learn about x?" Whoever puts their hand up gets taught and goes to the front, the ones who want to mess about go to the back and anyone not on the roll get sent out and door shut.

This will make or break you. If you dont want this challenge move to a private school or one with a good record which would sadly be a better fit for you. 😘

Schools really need to crack down on bad behaviour. Zero tolerance, one strike and you're out, that kind of thing. School should be for the kids that want to learn, the whole "inclusion" experiment has been a disaster, quite frankly. Bring back Borstals (don't call them that, obviously) and name and shame the parents whose children are miscreants.

I quite teaching (Secondary science) at the beginning of the first lock down in 2020 after doing reasonably long term supply in a school. It was exactly as you describe, and this will out me to people who know me as it's a story I've shared widely, but the thing that made me finally quit was having to tell a Year 8 boy to stop licking the window and meaning it literally.

It was a particularly rough zoo school, but the abuse and poor behaviour from pupils was so bad, with a lack of SMT support, I was beyond stressed.

Friends still in teaching have said that behaviour has deteriorated since. I'm so glad I left.

Well this evening I've encountered three arrogant teenage girls at my workplace. I was left in no doubt that their attitude is a direct consequence of their upbringing - one was particularly certain that her mother would back her up even though she was undeniably in the wrong. Hopefully they won't be quite so cocky when the police pay a visit to their school tomorrow - we've got bodycam footage and one of their teachers was a witness.

Were they shoplifting?

Oh, and that's not to mention the loved-up teenagers the other week who disappeared into the yard one evening. He emerged in tears (evidently not usually the type to get into serious trouble), she on the other hand decided to tell our security guards that her dad would come and stab them. She got arrested.

Again, this is what happens when kids believe that their parents will back them up regardless of what they've done. They need to learn the word "no".

Not retail but yes, the equivalent of that sort of crime, plus a little feral behaviour into the bargain.

I've had far worse behaviour from teenage girls than from teenage boys this year. They just seem to think that they're untouchable.

Did you frequently have to duck to avoid the chairs flying across the classroom? Were teachers ever assaulted?

While bullying can be very hard to stamp out as it often goes on unreported out of sight of staff, I find it hard to believe that blatant disrespect or violence to teachers carries on unhindered at private schools in the same way that it does in many state schools who can't permanently exclude a student as easily.

I'd expect to see better behaviour at private schools, yes, in part because of small class sizes. But some posters on here are talking about private schools as if they are basically perfect - full of very bright and highly motivated children sent there at great expense by highly educated parents who cherish education and encourage their children to behave well and work hard. And no doubt wonderfully led and with wonderful staff who bring out the best in children. I've had some experience of private schools that are or were not like that. Actually my Dsis went to an expensive boarding school where children were allowed to attend lessons or not, to work towards exams or not, as they wished. She did absolutely no work whatever and scraped one basic pass at A'level. There are plenty of really poor private schools around. Private schools can basically do what they want, so can be very maverick. And you can't count on them to be around for as long as your child's education lasts, or to treat your child fairly - they can do what they like. I have personal experience of 3 that have closed down unexpectedly, forcing all those children to find new schools in a hurry (luckily the one my DC attended didn't close down until after they'd left). And the teachers may well be poorly qualified and not that good. There is less oversight of private schools than of state schools.
I'm not talking about Eton, but even some very expensive private schools are pretty dodgy if you look below the surface.

On the question of class size, Chinese schools typically have class sizes of over 50, without discipline problems.

Class sizes are not the problem. The problem is that there are no repercussions for bad behaviour.

And this is why I’ll be doing everything in my power to send my DC to private school!

My school was very much like this. Only a few teachers could control a class. Most pupils were awful. I hunkered down and studied as much as I could as I had a sense at an early age that many were on a path to nowhere fast but it could be very hard to concentrate in many classes.