Is behaviour this bad in all schools now?!

[Growingmyhairout]

I am a supply teacher who's in a long term role but don't think I can deal with it.
I'm in a non core subject which doesn't help, one that pupils find difficult and don't have to do a GCSE in.
I was covering a 2 week sickness in one boys school, but couldn't have done anymore as behaviour was awful.
I'm now at what's been called a very challenging school. However I've walked past some other lessons and all kids are silent pretty much.
I've been here for a few weeks now so the kids know I'm not there just for a day or anything, yet no improvements.
I've been suggested to ring parents but if I did I'd be making 45 calls an evening which there is just not the time to do, especially for £110 a day gross.
I do give detentions, warnings etc. But it doesn't make much difference.
Some kids will just get up and walk out of your lesson when they feel like it. Or kids who aren't even in your lesson will turn up and sit in the room.
Coats on, phones out, earphones in, eating. When I tell them not to, some kids will listen but some will literally just ignore you. Swinging on chairs, shouting across the room, fighting, swearing.
Each lesson I send a few out to other classrooms which helps to an extent.
The worst are cover lessons though, as I'm used for cover as well as my own classes. Cover is an absolute nightmare.
I record everything but don't know what difference it makes.
Throwing things across the room, putting make up on. Answering me back very rudely.
Just all talking loudly and ignoring me. I refuse to shout over them as I've already got a hoarse voice from raising it.
I email heads of year, sometimes they will come in if they're not busy.
Some lessons are alright, but there's an insane level of disrespect.
As I said I've been here a few weeks now, how long is it going to take?
I've got a TA in all lessons which I'm really grateful about, but they don't seem to respect her much either.
We had an ok class this morning once the worst were removed, but had an absolutely horrendous year 7 group. She said she'd never seen a school like it.
I've been offered long-term, part time cover in another school. I'm tempted to go, but I'm thinking what's the point?
It's just going to be the same everywhere isn't it? I'm not expecting kids to sit in absolute silence for 5 hours a day but the behaviour is unacceptable. I'll be trying to speak and many students will just carry on having their own conversation.
I also feel like I'd be letting down the school who've even given me a TA when most other teachers don't get one.
I feel like a failure as a teacher. I think I've been firm but fair, but I don't think I can do this. Is behaviour really this bad in all schools?

@Venetiaparties I don't think so. Private school parents running down state schools to reinforce their own prejudices is a pretty well known phenomenon.

Hey don't discourage her. Some of my classes have 33 kids despite only having tables and chairs for 32 and the rooms having been sized for even less.

If this is happening across the school it is due to poor leadership. Good visible senior management makes a lot of difference.

This ^^

You don't see very much, if any bad behaviour in private schools. That is a solid fact.

Private schools simply won't allow it, and have their reputation (and finances) to protect, and the parents are paying such a huge amount of money for each child to attend, they expect full commitment from their children - not just a few in the class - but everyone is expected to reach their potential.

Well motivated, focused children from a home where education is highly valued will generate a thriving, inspiring learning experience. That is why there are so many parents willing to invest the eye watering sums of 45,000gbp pa at least, for the best schools.

That is why private schools work, everyone is heavily heavily invested.

Parents have many choices to switch schools if they wish, schools can choose the very brightest of students. Hence the reason why you see well behaved, confident children without the social issues described on here 99% of the time.

QED

I find that hard to believe.
Certainly when I was at private school there was a fair amount of bad behaviour. Including bullying. To a lesser extent that was the case at the first of my DC's private schools too.
And many private schools can't just choose bright and / or motivated children. Some private schools basically specialise in taking children who are not very bright, while their bright brothers and sisters get into the neighbouring selective private schools, or state grammars.
Not all parents of private school pupils are well educated or particularly motivated in respect of their children's education, either. They may just go for private school because it's seen as the right thing to do if you have money, for instance. Or because of the wraparound care.

And not all private schools "work", either. One of my DC's private schools got a very bad Ofsted report and closed down. I know of several other private schools that have also closed down due to dropping numbers.

I think private school payers have to convince themselves private schools are very different to state schools.
In reality there is good and and in both sectors,

I get what you’re saying. However, having been through the state education myself and having attended what would today be a failing school in special measures had those existed, I can safely say, private schools are indeed very different from that school. Private schools have to be different from that one to survive. Several parents of my peers refused to send their children there. To put it into context, the council refused to fund certain subjects at higher levels and I only have 5 O levels, the maximum I was allowed to take. The teaching for the most part was dumbed down and dire. My grades definitely do not reflect my ability. This said same school still requires improvement decades later.

I also have experience through dd in a different county. Had she got into the excellent comp she would have loved to attend, I imagine she’d still be there. As is, she moved to private school in year 9. I know of several parents, who’ve changed their children from state to private in her year group between year 8 and 10 with others, whose parents cannot afford private are now home Ed.

Dd has lots of fun and there is definitely an element of naughtiness allowed but not at the same level as her former state school. No one is using lighters in lessons, throwing punches or chairs across the room etc. It is still a bit sink or swim at dd’s private school and I think any child requiring more one to one teaching would need to attend either a very small private school or a specialist state school to get their needs met.

That's the norm. Yes, there are state schools that do not reach those standards, but again, don't cherry pick the worst and claim it is the majority.

I haven't 'cherry picked' the worst state schools. My children don't go to a state school. And I mostly attended private and boarding so my experience is limited.

It's certainly not the 'norm' according to the MN threads here. I think that will be somewhere in between, realistically.

This 100%. Because private education is expensive, and some schools, particularly in London, are very hard to get into, both the parents and the children are on board with expectations.
Unfortunately this isn't the case in many state schools. If the parents don't care, their attitude filters down to the children, who have no real incentive to learn. It's no preparation for the world of work.

I actually think it is and it scares me for when my children start secondary. I left the classroom about 10 years ago but still do some tuition and the stories my pupils tell me about what happens in their, locally well respected, ofsted outstanding, schools is really quite shocking. There is one local school which bans phones and has silent corridors which seems to have better behaviour. It seems like you have to either be one of those Michaela style zero tolerance schools or accept behaviour is going to be poor.

My kids are both in a zero-tolerance school. They work.

It's not the norm on Mumsnet because people don't start threads when their child is getting a good education in their state school, and it is trouble-free. I've only posted about the good state schools I know of because there were so many people doing the 'state schools are terrible' narrative.

And the TV programmes like 'Educating Manchester' of course focus on the challenging pupils because it makes for drama. No-one would be interested in watching well behaved, engaged young people being taught by experienced teachers, then hanging out with their friends at lunchtime. It would be incredibly boring.

I would worry about the quality of the education received by anyone who assumes that Mumsnet shows the 'norm' of state schools, neighbourly relations, marriage, or anything else! It shows a serious lack of critical thinking skills.

@antelopevalley how does a zero tolerance school work?

I have to agree with the private school argument to an extent. We are doing private schooling with dc and I can say at our school this would not be allowed- zero tolerance. Badly behaved, behaviourial issues, disrespectful children are not tolerated. This was a big factor in going private. I don't want anything compromising my dc educated. Pp made a good point about those who choose private in that both parents and the child are heavily, heavily invested.

Is notbeing heavily invested it a UK cultural issue?

The school I work in is like this in some classes with some teachers (particularly cover teachers). Other lessons/classes are not like this. There is a shocking amount of just outright rude and disrespectful behaviour from some children though. I feel sorry for the quiet majority who would just like to be able to get on with it.

I believe the school my children go to is better but they have an easier starting point because that is not a school that anyone ends up going to by default it is very competitive to get in (church school with some academic places). They are therefore dealing with children from very engaged families which makes a big difference.

The school I work in has children who come from quite challenging situations at home. I do think behaviour management could be more effective though. That comes from the top, having experienced in a previous school some dramatic changes in behaviour when leadership changed. The new leadership was very inspired by the Michaela school and the impact on behaviour was very positive. There were other aspects that I really wasn't keen on though!

The thing that your not writing or perhaps are unaware of is that girls didn’t just start doing better organically. When the idea of women’s schooling being important first started to gain traction around the middle half of the 1900’s (or slightly later) girls weren’t doing as well as boys, so over time a number of measures were considered and implemented in the hope they would help improve girls academic results, with little thought as to whether they would harm boys.

Among these was placing a greater emphasis on sustained course work in opposition to examinations (and reducing the amount of examinations) as well as other measures.

So if boys and girls learning differently is just caused by gender stereotypes, then why was it important to change the way school taught to help girls in the first place? By your logic girls could have just adapted to the way boys were learning and learn as well. And why is the way girls learn best thought to be the correct way which boys must adapt to, but not the opposite?

Further, if boys and girls do (averaged out) actually learn best in different ways, why not try to implement both so that both sexes can reach their full potential? It seems almost triggering to some to consider that maybe boys could learn better in a different way and they’re almost afraid to let people try to implement better ways for boys to learn, lest boys actually do improve and it disproves the idea that girls and boys learn in the same way and ergo, are inwardly the same.

I don’t know why but some feminist types seem very emotionally opposed to trying to improve boys results by actually creating learning which caters to boys, instead of working against them as though they’re afraid it might succeed.

Anyhow, if girls suddenly began falling behind boys in learning I doubt you would be so blasé about it and would surely be open to girls learning in ways which better suited them and allowed them to suceed - so why so closed minded to the idea that boys should have that same opportunity when they’re behind?

@antelopevalley

To an extent, but the reality is the worst of public is far far worse. I can’t imagine a teacher being stabbed through the hand with a protractor, a child being hit in the back of the head with a hockey stick or an older male student sticking there hand inside a female teachers pants and underwear - all of which happened in a short space of time at a single public school I briefly worked at (thank god for the briefly).

I don’t teach but I have a number of friends who do and they’ve been regaling me with stories like this for years - well before COVID. I doubt there’s one issue underpinning but one issue that’s consistent is that the parents have no respect for the teachers. Whenever a behavioural problem is raised it’s the school’s fault, or the kid having SEN, or the school must be lying because their kid would never… etc etc etc. I just advise my friends to leave. The money they’re paid, it’s not worth it, and parents might finally wake up once they and their kids drive all the good teachers out. Probably not though.

What do people expect? This was always on the cards once corporal punishment was abolished in schools. Also, most parents are way too soft on their kids. There's just no discipline anywhere.

@PandoraRocks

This is true. Why would a 14 or 15 year old man sized “boy” from a rough home and area have respect or listen to some teacher who he knows is totally powerless to actually stop anything outrageous he might do?

And how can that boy actually have a chance to realise there’s more to life than whatever crap life has thrown at him up to that point, if the attempt to actually make him learn can’t even be made?

so you think we should go back to whipping them?🤔