Is behaviour this bad in all schools now?!

[Growingmyhairout]

I am a supply teacher who's in a long term role but don't think I can deal with it.
I'm in a non core subject which doesn't help, one that pupils find difficult and don't have to do a GCSE in.
I was covering a 2 week sickness in one boys school, but couldn't have done anymore as behaviour was awful.
I'm now at what's been called a very challenging school. However I've walked past some other lessons and all kids are silent pretty much.
I've been here for a few weeks now so the kids know I'm not there just for a day or anything, yet no improvements.
I've been suggested to ring parents but if I did I'd be making 45 calls an evening which there is just not the time to do, especially for £110 a day gross.
I do give detentions, warnings etc. But it doesn't make much difference.
Some kids will just get up and walk out of your lesson when they feel like it. Or kids who aren't even in your lesson will turn up and sit in the room.
Coats on, phones out, earphones in, eating. When I tell them not to, some kids will listen but some will literally just ignore you. Swinging on chairs, shouting across the room, fighting, swearing.
Each lesson I send a few out to other classrooms which helps to an extent.
The worst are cover lessons though, as I'm used for cover as well as my own classes. Cover is an absolute nightmare.
I record everything but don't know what difference it makes.
Throwing things across the room, putting make up on. Answering me back very rudely.
Just all talking loudly and ignoring me. I refuse to shout over them as I've already got a hoarse voice from raising it.
I email heads of year, sometimes they will come in if they're not busy.
Some lessons are alright, but there's an insane level of disrespect.
As I said I've been here a few weeks now, how long is it going to take?
I've got a TA in all lessons which I'm really grateful about, but they don't seem to respect her much either.
We had an ok class this morning once the worst were removed, but had an absolutely horrendous year 7 group. She said she'd never seen a school like it.
I've been offered long-term, part time cover in another school. I'm tempted to go, but I'm thinking what's the point?
It's just going to be the same everywhere isn't it? I'm not expecting kids to sit in absolute silence for 5 hours a day but the behaviour is unacceptable. I'll be trying to speak and many students will just carry on having their own conversation.
I also feel like I'd be letting down the school who've even given me a TA when most other teachers don't get one.
I feel like a failure as a teacher. I think I've been firm but fair, but I don't think I can do this. Is behaviour really this bad in all schools?

@Ideatcakeforbreakfast

"Management actually care and make huge efforts to support all staff and pupils."

This is 100%, research proven, accurate for all sectors. And projects, too. High quality and problem solving leadership in all areas makes for more successful projects and happier staff/pupils/teams.

I'm an LSA in secondary. Our school is like this, literally everything you've said! It's horrendous and I have actually stopped getting involved unless someone is in danger because they're so rude it's awful. I was going to train to be an English teacher as I just graduated last year but i know i wouldnt cope with the behaviour! I get a small amount of respect from some pupils but most ignore me altogether.

It's really disappointing.

ArseInTheCoOpWindow
l went to a really well known posh comp in the 70’s. It was crazy. Throwing shoes, bags, books out of the windows, trying to stand on tables every lesson, throwing stuff, boys drinking lager (Braker) in lesson. Crying with laughter all the time.
Tjis was in a posh area.

This is very interesting, Arse! (Sorry!) Could you say whether it seemed to be a student problem (just downright obnoxious, spoilt, entitled kids) or a teacher problem (wet, pathetic teachers who wouldn't or couldn't take control out of some bonkers ideological principle?)

I'm guessing Pimlico School, or Holland Park?? You probably don't want to say. But I went to a meeting at the much-praised Pimlico School in the 80s and I was taken aback by the the rowdy atmosphere - kids running in the corridors, shouting between lessons etc. The management seemed proud!! I wouldn't have wanted to teach there or to send my children there.

I remember when a so-called 'Super Head' Tostig Fried....something (he was popularly known as Toast and Fried Egg) took over and had a large, framed, professionally taken photograph of each student put on the walls of the school. This was apparently to raise students' self-esteem and make them feel valued. I wonder if it worked? I don't want to think of how much that little exercise cost, but to me it's an example of profligate waste on some dopey idea that doesn't make any material difference. Much better to have spent the quids on more staff, which I think is the only thing that makes students' experience better.

TheClitterati · Yesterday 07:40
My dd y10 doesn't recognise any of this for which I am super thankful.
She said there might be one "naughty girl" per class where naughty means answering teach back.
It's a girls grammar school.

I agree. My son went to a state comprehensive which had been a very good grammar school, and there was certainly a grammar school feel to it, for which I was also grateful.

When I was looking at schools for my children and touring the local options (which in our area are not really options - it's SW Herts and all schools are very over-subscribed), only 2 things carried any weight with me: the teaching staff/atmosphere of purposefulness and what the current students were like. I didn't give a damn about new facilities, what colour the walls were painted or how many computer suites they had.

I wanted my children to go to a school where good behaviour was expected and was the norm, and where parents would be highly supportive of the school's aims. I didn't want a place where it wasn't cool to work hard and achieve, and I was lucky in that their schools (both state) were fantastic. There might have been a bit of minor 'behaviour' in the bottom sets, but otherwise the teachers were able to teach - not something to be taken for granted these days - and students (especially academic, musical nerdy boys like my son) could relax and be themselves, without being bulllied, intimidated or having their opportunities squandered by disruptive children. I so wish that every child who wants to work and achieve could be so lucky.

@CulturePigeon ,

No it was in Sheffield. It was still living on its reputation as an old grammar school.

l do think we were an exceptionally naughty class though. It was full of clever mischievous people. 2nd set, which l know from being a teacher is always the naughtiest set.

We were always getting bollocked. I loved it! 😁

Was this a school in Chorleywood?

KSJR · Today 08:01
I feel primary schools are the problem, they are setting them up to fail in secondary. The primary I was working in is far too gentle, for eg it was a “no shouting” school. They had a time out room where they went to think about their actions. The kids loved this room it was just a chill with the rest of the badly behaved children who where in there. They are ruling the school Because of this I feel like the pupils think they are untouchable and go into secondary with the same attitude. 🤷🏼‍♀️

(I'm sorry, MNers - I'm posting a lot on this thread because I feel very strongly about it...)

I agree, KSJR. I've taught in primaries too, and the gentle induction schemes from the local high schools used to amuse/irritate me. Huge efforts were made to ensure that the children felt no fear whatsoever on their first day at secondary school. I remember a teacher coming over to sit with the naughtiest lads in my class to gently talk to them and reassure them that there was absolutely NOTHING to worry about. I expect he learned, in the end!!

There is a difference between fear and awe. I think it's fitting that children should feel a sense of awe on their first day at secondary school They should walk through the gates with a sense of being on their mettle, and actively want to make a good impression. The boot seems to be on the other foot, with schools believing THEY have to make a good impression on the students. Why?

While in secondaries, I've seen some new students, during their first few days, walking into class smirking, clearly feeling over-confident and in no way under any pressure to impress staff, or make a new start. No wonder there isn't even a 'honeymoon period' any more with Year 7s in some schools.

And, while I feel for the nicer, well-behaved students - I wonder how much of the anxiety they feel on transfer is due to worrying about other students' behaviour, rather than their new teachers?

I am also a day to day supply teacher I've been to at least 25 schools now and yes the behaviour is bad all around. Some schools are better than others for example yesterday I had a child being a huge problem to the point it was impossible to continue with him in the room. I sent for on call 3 times and no one came.
If the behaviour is bad but the staff are supportive, makes it a lot easier.

Woodhill

You may be on to something, Sherlock! But it wasn't the high school in Chorleywood.

He went to a school that was nominally a grammar, but technically a comprehensive nowadays. We wanted the grammar school feel and it still had that. It was perfect for him - and single-sex education suited him brilliantly during his early secondary years. He loved the music especially and is still in touch with many of his teachers.

It frustrates me so much. The children who behaved well where overlooked whilst the repeat offenders got to go and have a cup of tea in the heads room while they calmed down. So not only was there no consequences there was also no reward for good behaviour. It’s a failing system and I’d say 70% of the problem in children's behaviour today. The other 30% I would think is home life and learnt behaviour.

Ahh was this the one where there is a football stadium and a park? Lol

It’s not fashionable to say and at the risk of sounding like a Daily Mail reader there does need to be a slight element of fear amongst the pupils generally to keep everyone in line. All this lovey dovey child focussed nothing must trouble you my little emperor frankly produces monsters.

Not advocating a return to the days of Mr Gradgrind but teens need firm clear fair boundaries and consequences that are unwelcome for those that push them.

ArseInTheCoOpWindow · Today 11:48

Sounds like my sister's class at our grammar school! She came home with a story every night!

Woodhill

No - it was the one with the Music School (not officially part of the school, but very much used by the music dept) in the grounds.

By selling off that site (not a playing field, btw) the Head was able to reduce class sizes to an average of 23. Amazing - you can pay very good money for 23 in a class. He had the right priorities, I think.

Right! I will try to make this my last post on here - I've monopolised it long enough. Story about the strange balance of power between students/staff/school which I think says a lot about the problems we have today. I'll try to be concise.

Notorious Y10 lad, frequently suspended, went up to the 2nd floor corridor of a local school (where I was working). He used a heavy metal bar to wreck all the lights along that corridor, then chucked the bar out of the window (from a height). Luckily it didn't hit anyone below. The fantastic caretaker was furious.

The Head, who was so wet he was dripping, asked the boy to write to the caretaker to apologise. The boy wrote the sort of pathetic, borderline-insolent letter which I'm sure any teacher will be familiar with - basically one scrawled sentence. When he gave it to the caretaker, the c/t told the boy he didn't think the letter showed any real remorse or understanding of the seriousness of what he'd done, and threw it into the bin.

Parents phoned the Head, furious that their son had been humiliated by the caretaker. His feelings were apparently deeply hurt. The Head then asked the caretaker to write to the parents and the boy apologising for his actions.

The caretaker (who was great - and it's not always possible to find such dedicated and competent people for what is a badly-paid role) then resigned, and I for one don't blame him. The boy remained at the school and carried on his usual trade.

Oh - also, when this chap was on duty after school or at a weekend, he would occasionally find boys (maybe not from the same school) engaged in petty vandalism and trespass. When he reprimanded them and asked them to leave he was, of course, called a paedophile and threatened by the teenagers with all kinds of allegations.

This is the world we have created! Enjoy.

Agree. I dread to think how this generation is going to turn out. Workplaces don’t run like this, they’re going to get the shock of their lives when mum can’t make the boss “unsack” them.

@CulturePigeon Some parents want locking up. The societal impact of their little darlings is going to be heinous.

I went to an incredibly rough school in the seventies in a hugely deprived area. We had none of these problems.

Your story about the caretaker wouldn’t be about a denominational school not that far from Chorleywood by any chance? It sounds familiar!

I would guess a languages teacher!

I did long term supply at a school like that, but the main problem was a core of girls.

I spoke to my line manager and insisted the worst girl was removed. Just removed from my lessons. No, no, can't do that, she must be included.

I said it was her of me, and I put together a pack of sheets, her book, the text book.

Next lesson, I told her off as usual, but this time I told her to leave and explained where she would be spending every lesson.

She got loads more work done. And the other 29 kids, including her groupies, also got more work done.

I checked her work as normal, and caught up with her for any mistakes.

Absolute mickey take, so uncaring that they get an education for free.

This sort of thing used to really wind me up. The perpetually badly-behaved pupils got to go go-karting if they could keep their nose clean for a week. What did the rest of us (who always behaved) get? Not a sausage.

Behaviour in my school is definitely not like this, but I have experienced similar in some local schools and indeed in one private one. The private school was worse because the kids believed that they were entitled to behave like shits because daddy was paying for their education.

In 4 out of my 5 lessons yesterday, kids thanked me at the end. They ranged in age from 12 to 17. I know I'm lucky to work in a really nice school.

angstridden

Could be! A 'nice' school in an affluent area too.

I would say your experience pretty well matches my own Supply work this year; I've been pretty shocked too. Started a thread in The Staffroom part of Mumsnet asking about it. I would consider my class management skills and subject knowledge as pretty reasonable too.
Not sure I could cope full time as you are; 2-3 days a week and I'm shattered. Support is very inconsistent too with me; often kids have a detention anyway and so it's hard to actually create any extra sanction. Problems can occur in pretty well any year group.
Many pupils walk around, in and out of the room, chat to each other, ignore you, and have no interest in anything educational it seems. Too many difficult ones to be able to run an effective class I find for the few who would listen if they could. You end up feeling a strange stressful mix of futile depressed impotence that stretches for an hour, and then another .... I really sympathise, as your place sounds even harder.
There are extra challenges to being supply I know; but it's still mad.
I'd probably give it up if I was you. Wish you luck.

There needs to be a massive crackdown on bad behaviour in schools.

First day, "these are the rules, read them, if you obey them, you will have a good time in school, we are here to help you achieve your full potential in life."
"However if you break them than CLICK you're gone. You are out of the education system. Your parents will have to arrange education for you, at their own expense. You will probably end up homeless or in prison for most of your life. If you think this sounds attractive, feel free to break the rules"...