Is behaviour this bad in all schools now?!

[Growingmyhairout]

I am a supply teacher who's in a long term role but don't think I can deal with it.
I'm in a non core subject which doesn't help, one that pupils find difficult and don't have to do a GCSE in.
I was covering a 2 week sickness in one boys school, but couldn't have done anymore as behaviour was awful.
I'm now at what's been called a very challenging school. However I've walked past some other lessons and all kids are silent pretty much.
I've been here for a few weeks now so the kids know I'm not there just for a day or anything, yet no improvements.
I've been suggested to ring parents but if I did I'd be making 45 calls an evening which there is just not the time to do, especially for £110 a day gross.
I do give detentions, warnings etc. But it doesn't make much difference.
Some kids will just get up and walk out of your lesson when they feel like it. Or kids who aren't even in your lesson will turn up and sit in the room.
Coats on, phones out, earphones in, eating. When I tell them not to, some kids will listen but some will literally just ignore you. Swinging on chairs, shouting across the room, fighting, swearing.
Each lesson I send a few out to other classrooms which helps to an extent.
The worst are cover lessons though, as I'm used for cover as well as my own classes. Cover is an absolute nightmare.
I record everything but don't know what difference it makes.
Throwing things across the room, putting make up on. Answering me back very rudely.
Just all talking loudly and ignoring me. I refuse to shout over them as I've already got a hoarse voice from raising it.
I email heads of year, sometimes they will come in if they're not busy.
Some lessons are alright, but there's an insane level of disrespect.
As I said I've been here a few weeks now, how long is it going to take?
I've got a TA in all lessons which I'm really grateful about, but they don't seem to respect her much either.
We had an ok class this morning once the worst were removed, but had an absolutely horrendous year 7 group. She said she'd never seen a school like it.
I've been offered long-term, part time cover in another school. I'm tempted to go, but I'm thinking what's the point?
It's just going to be the same everywhere isn't it? I'm not expecting kids to sit in absolute silence for 5 hours a day but the behaviour is unacceptable. I'll be trying to speak and many students will just carry on having their own conversation.
I also feel like I'd be letting down the school who've even given me a TA when most other teachers don't get one.
I feel like a failure as a teacher. I think I've been firm but fair, but I don't think I can do this. Is behaviour really this bad in all schools?

What happens to students who assault teachers in secondary schools?
A posse of girls rule here and every parent I know wants to move their children but there’s nowhere to go.

That totally depends on the severity of the assault, the policy and the willingness of SLT to implement it. My school used to deal with such incidences properly (although such incidences were very rare) with exclusion etc.

Currently in my school, If you count throwing a pencil case directly at a teacher’s stomach (a teacher who is very clearly almost 8 months pregnant) as a minor assault then they get banned from the next lesson and are not even made to apologise.

Depending on the severity, internal isolations or fixed term exclusions usually.

There has to be a very robust, fair system of behaviour management that works across the whole school. We implemented one in Sept 19 and it transformed our classrooms from dens of constant low level fuss and disruption where it felt like the kids were vaguely in charge, to OUR rooms, OUR school and YOUR behaviour has CLEAR consequences (one warning and out, basically).

The system took a beating post-covid as we felt we had to be more accommodating to the circumstances children found themselves in but this term we are back with a vengeance and school is (mostly) a pleasure to work in again. It’s like schools used to be 25 years ago.

There is also a system that deals with poor behaviour during break/lunch which hasn’t been used since March 2020 but has just been re-implemented and is starting to have effect.

‘Depending on the severity, internal isolations or fixed term exclusions usually.‘

Slapping teachers across the face or shoving them to the floor.
Serious or only middling bad? I really don’t know as in my school looking out of the window during lessons was counted as rude.

Fucking hell do none of these schools have cameras ?? I remember one time I mitched a maths class with a friend because I didn't do my homework and this teacher was a no shit no excuse dragon, anyway she called my mum unbeknownst to me and I was called out of class later in the day to find my mum in the principals office, so she turns to me like how was maths class, before I got a word in principal started playing the footage of me and friend entering bathroom and fast forward to us leaving 40 mins later. My mum had already seen it and was fuming, kept saying she was mortified and I was received a 2 day suspension from school but mam had me housebound (besides school) for two weeks after spending every evening and full weekend doing chores, she ran out of stuff for me tobdo and had me washing the wallpaper 🤣 ... learned fairly quickly never to do that again, there is no fury like a mum finding out "their little darling would never..." actually did 😅 she was so embarrassed as she went into the school full prepared to defend me of course and I lost all credibility there after, my own fault. But I'm a mum now and I would do similar if a teacher rang me, I raised my children to have respect and will not be shown up because they want to show off in front of friends, they'd receive the same punishment I did without a doubt.

I've asked teenage DC and apparently there are no real discipline problems at her comprehensive school. What I like as well is that she's in a nice friendship group which includes both girls and boys. To me, the school doesn't come across as particularly strict. They're pretty relaxed about uniform, with children wearing jewellery and make up, having pink or blue dyed hair, wearing Doc Martens, etc. Actually my DC has done all of those things, with not a mutter from the school.

Not in lessons but liaise closely with school due to DDs needs. Their comments are usually about DDs good behaviour and DD is clear about things that affect her ability to concentrate (low level noise because triggered because of DV in birth family that has trauma response for DD).

The friends who are a secondary school teacher and a primary TA speak for themselves.

The friends who are parents have children with excellent GCSE results (Oxbridge level) so presumably any disruption hasn't affected them

If someone assaulted a teacher DD would be shocked! It really isn't ususal

My dd’s former large comp is like this. Zero respect for supply teachers, whom the kids see as fair game. As a result, supply teachers struggle to perform much more than a baby sitting service. The head unfortunately doesn’t seem to be the right character to turn the school around. He seems to talk the talk but this isn’t translating into action within the SLT. And this is an ofsted outstanding school. I have heard a gargantuan effort is made to get the rating, which sadly isn’t followed through all year round. In contrast to this is another local outstanding school, where the students are taught to be proud of who they are and of their school. The culture couldn’t be more different.

My first teaching job 25 years ago was like this, even worse actually as the head himself was also a bully towards the teachers. A nasty man who finally got his comeuppance I'm pleased to say! Change jobs before thinking about giving up the career. I now work in a semi rural independent school and yes, there are some challenges, but I actually get to teach lessons!

Yes this sounds just like my DD’s school. I told them this week she won’t be going back. No other schools in the area have spaces in her year. No idea what will happen now but she wasn’t safe there.

Behaviour can be sorted if you have a proper behaviour policy that is rigourously enforced by senior staff. My school has one and students behave most of the time. Any poor behaviour such as talking when the teacher is talking, turning round, not working hard enough etc gets a warning. Three warnings and you are out for the rest of the lesson and have a detention after school. Senior staff expect staff to have students removed if they don't engage with the lesson. They don't care how many you remove either. Behaviour is generally excellent. Previously removal was only for seriously bad behaviour, now it's allowed for any student who simply isn't behaving as they should. Having high expectations makes such a difference and not blaming teachers for poor behaviour.

Find a really expensive area with a close knit catchment and try and get a job there. Or private. I will do everything in my power to keep my kids out of state secondary.

You mean out of the state comprehensive I went to, which consistently had (and has) better results than the local private school, and now has a showjumping team that competes against the local private schools? 😂

I have just thought about my 9 closest friends, so 10 experiences including me.

3 were not at school in the UK. Of the 7 who did, we all went to a state comprehensive, ranging from rural to inner city. Only 1 of those schools had bad behaviour - to the point there was an arson attack the summer she had finished her A levels. She's the only one of us to go to Oxbridge, thanks to the education she received at the school - the first of her family to go to university.

The 10 of us have 16 children between us, all state educated. 2 are still at primary school, but will go to the same school as an older sibling.

The 14 are all going/went (the oldest is now 21, so school is a recent experience).to a state comprehensive, a total of 8 different schools. None rural, a mix of big city and semi-rural/market town. None have problems with behaviour. All are happy with the way our children's needs are being met, from the academic (aiming for medicine) to the SEN (full time 1:1 because of mental and physical disabilities). One had to change her son's primary school because they were taking a punitive approach to his emotional issues, once she changed to a more supportive school those issues resolved.

Two of the friends are teachers in the state system, one primary, one secondary. Neither is in a school that has a breakdown in behaviour or constant disruption.

To say you would never consider state schooling says more about your bigotry than it does about state schools. I have no doubt that some are a battleground, but that does not mean all - or even the majority - are.

I am sorry to tell you people don't generally send their children to private school necessarily or purely for attainment and showjumping, but for reasons of safety, respect, accountability and their children being cared for in a secure and comfortable environment with other kind children. And you have the ability to move your child easily if that is not their experience. Good grades do not always reflect a well rounded, solid education either.

DS's secondary is absolutely nothing like you've described, but 5 years ago it absolutely was.

A change in leadership made a huge difference. The behaviour policy is followed to the letter. The heads of years, deputy and head teacher back up their staff and stand for no nonsense. The school remains nurturing and the children feel safe.

Seek out other schools in your area with more supportive leadership.

And the majority of state schools provide a safe, responsive, accountable, well-rounded education. It is easy to cherry pick the worst example of a state school and then claim that is the norm for state schools.

Of the 10 of us I mentioned in my previous post, 9 of us have degrees from a range of universities, including RG unis and Oxbridge. We took part in a range of extra curriculars through our bog-standard comps, and felt safe, made friends (and learnt to deal with the occasional 'unkind' kid).

It reminds me of a colleague who mentioned putting her son's name on the pre-waiting list for local prep schools. I must have looked a bit surprised (her son was only about a year old at that point) as she then said quickly 'I wish we didn't have to, but the local schools are impossible'.

I looked up the local primaries in her borough out of curiosity, and they all on the surface seemed fine, good or outstanding. Now, of course an in depth look might have shown severe issues in all of them, but I doubt she had taken an in depth look, and certainly gave no sign of taking a serious look when her son was nearing school age - a lot can change in 3 or 4 years. She and her husband had gone to private schools, so 'of course' state schools were 'impossible'.

Of the 10 of us I mentioned in my previous post, 9 of us have degrees from a range of universities, including RG unis and Oxbridge. We took part in a range of extra curriculars through our bog-standard comps, and felt safe, made friends (and learnt to deal with the occasional 'unkind' kid).

That sounds very fortunate indeed from bog standard comps... unfortunately not the experience of many on these threads nowadays.

@mightarture

Not my experience working in many and also my kids current experience.

"The lady doth protest too much, methinks"

It has been the experience of our 16 (between us) children as well. All the state secondaries in the London borough where I live are OFSTED good or outstanding. They have their strengths and weaknesses like any school, but I would have been happy to send DD to any of them.

DD's school has a range of extra-curricular activities and school trips, there is an enrichment track for pupils aiming at Oxbridge and RG universities, as well as an excellent SEN Dept (DD has an EHCP) and additional help in core subjects for pupils like DD who need it. She has been in the school play, is in the choir, and goes to homework club after school when she needs help. She does a lot of dance classes outside school, so doesn't have much time for school-based extra-curricular activities, but I see the programme every term and there are a huge range - various sports, foreign language film club, cookery, environmental activities, debating, robotics, coding etc etc

It was our second choice, by the way.

Of the 9 friends I quoted above, 2 are local and their children go to two of the other local state comps, and have a similar experience to DD.

FSM etc are average for London.

That's the norm. Yes, there are state schools that do not reach those standards, but again, don't cherry pick the worst and claim it is the majority.

Every child should go to a school that has high attainment, good behaviour and able to learn critical thinking skills.
I don't think it especially between state or private, although it always seems to come up. Many teachers are reporting so many issues post pandemic, and this reflects in the numbers soaring with mental health problems, lack of engagement and a wide range of social issues. The problem was there before and it has been aggravated by the lockdowns and the way our children have been treated during the pandemic.

God only knows what will become of the children that are STILL living like this, and have been for three years approaching such as China.

We, and especially our children are paying the price for a lack of planning for an emergency situation like covid. I am not blaming government per se, as the advice would have been the same regardless of party, the suicide numbers are frightening. I hope we can get our young people back to feeling motivated, inspired and hopeful.

I am not a teacher, and I don't work in the education sector, so I have no skin in the game. Just a state educated parent with a state educated child, and similar friends - who just doesn't recognise the 'state schools are impossible' attitude on this thread.