Sat here crying about DD’s behaviour

[Cantfeelmuchthesedays]

I can’t take much more of it.
She woke up at 6 am, shouting she wanted to go downstairs, kicking me in my back.
Asking me to help her to do things and then getting angry as I’m doing it wrong. Constantly reacting and shouting and screaming. Following the dog around annoying her.
She’s not very pleasant anymore, at all and it’s causing huge problems between Dh and I, he’s stressed at work then comes home to shouting and screaming and taking ages at bedtime to sleep etc. Weekends are hell also.
We don’t have much patience anymore and I’m starting to dread waking up, my only peace is when I’m asleep.
I just don’t know what to do and if any of this is normal and a phase and will pass or something else. Taking her out is a nightmare, spending the day at home for 12 hours is worse.
As awful as it sounds, I miss my old life so very much, I don’t enjoy motherhood anymore and don’t know what happened to my lovely girl, I don’t know if we’re to blame or if it’s normal and we’re not emotionally strong enough.
Will this just be our lives now

I’m just thinking how I haven’t seen her properly laugh or smile for a while, she won’t cuddle up as much, only sometimes. I probably am too much of a worrier and am a sensitive person but why so much anger 😞

Massive hugs OP, you sound like a lovely mum.

Going back to when this all started. Did anyone else babysit her at all? Look after her? Even if just for an afternoon?

Im wondering if it’s possible at all that something happened which has caused her change in behaviour that she wouldn’t be able to articulate.

im aware I may sound paranoid and whatnot but it happens and always good to explore all options/avenues

@Cantfeelmuchthesedays I don’t think I’m defensive but I do feel for example that your post is pretty much blaming me/my parenting when how can we know it’s that and it could possibly be something with my Dd that I need to help her with.

Feeling ‘blamed’ shows a defensive mindset. It’s not about blame, all children ever have been impacted by the approach their parents took, they don’t live in a vacuum. Yes you need to rule out underlying issues but that’s not the first port of call, the first step is to reflect on the dynamic at home and how you and your DH are approaching things, which is what people here are struggling to figure out.

You parent differently than your parents, but how? What specific approach and what are you basing this on?

You are trying to rationalise and talk to an entirely irrational being with no impulse control. When she is in that right brain state she is not physically able to engage her left side of her brain and will just become angrier. She needs these big feelings to be validated and heard, but as @mikado1 pointed out this is the feelings that must be allowed not the behaviours, she needs those rigid boundaries and gentle acceptable of her feelings.. Janet Lansbury really is so helpful in this. Is your DH into the idea of reading up on this stuff?

Have you read into how the physiology of tantrums and how their developing brains work? Whole Brain Child and How to Talk So Kids Will Listen are informative on this.

Symptoms of anxiety in children are listed here:

www.nhs.uk/mental-health/children-and-young-adults/advice-for-parents/anxiety-disorders-in-children/

Also I see a lot of people say that 2 x 3 hours at preschool is not enough to be settled and many have minimum 2x full day/4 x half day rules. Apparently they need to have enough time there each week or the full rhythm of the day with lunch etc. to feel fully comfortable and familiar.

@Condescendingtwats Thanks 😊 it’s nice to hear that at the moment.
She had a few meltdowns in July & August but not too extreme. It was a few weeks after starting Pre school that she started to meltdown and shout ‘Leave me alone!’ ‘Gi away!’ etc. I asked the teacher if all was ok and with friends etc, she said things were good. She got in trouble for pushing a boy and was made to sit on a bench and she cried they told me, she said she felt scared. She said one assistant carried her off the slide, and one carried him off and put him in a classroom and her on the bench with the assistant. She told me the assistant said she could go and play but she didn’t want to and hid behind a wall all playtime 😌
She also said one girl says to her ‘You can’t sit with me’ but she actually didn’t seem upset by that, again I asked the teacher and she said she watches everything and she plays with everyone well.
Since starting Pre school, her meltdowns have been v hard to control and seemingly getting worse. This week has been the worst with slamming doors again and again and just pure anger inside her, she has never acted like this before. We are all sick this week and she’s missed a lot of sleep due to waking in the night coughing and then waking early but it seems completely off the scale.

Also, I noticed a blinking & nose tic started when watching tv a few weeks ago 🥲

@Condescendingtwats We've never left her with a babysitter, haven’t had one yet, not even parents as they live far away, she’s always been with us.

As the parent of two autistic children and of one whom very high care needs, I very much agree with the above.

It is scary when you’re presented with a path that is an unknown.

It doesn't sound as if she has settled well into preschool at all.

If she's never been with anyone but you and her dad up to now then it will have been a big shock to her system to have to interact with other adults who are in charge. I assume that when she's played with her little friends you have been there with her?

I would second Manamala's suggestion that going full time would result in better settling and more security. Four half days would have a predictable pattern - up, breakfast, school, home, lunch, quiet time, out again to play, dinner, bath, bed. Then three days (Fri, Sat, Sun) to decompress, then back to the grindstone on Monday...

She would have a chance to develop a connection with the staff and they would get to know her better and be better placed to make meaningful observations about how she's doing. The comments they have offered to you so far have been pretty generic, tbh.

I would seriously consider paying a teenager to come in and do Mother's Helper maybe two afternoons a week in your home while you get on with chores or take a bath or read or simply have a nap. After you get to know a helper better, and DD gets to know her, you and DH could maybe go out somewhere on a Saturday morning for a few hours. It's good for children to get used to other people's ways. It would also signal to DD that you are not her playmate, you're her mother, you take care of stuff around the house, you and daddy have a relationship that is separate from your relationship with her.

Probiotics are good for constipation gastro issues
Behaviour is communication
Maybe ongoing gastric
Or something else

Highly likely she’s imitating behaviour she’s observed. Change her nursery and you will see a change in her. She’s trying to communicate with you the way she’s observed other children and/or caretakers behaving.

@mathanxiety She cried the first few times and the teacher had to carry her in, which was very hard. Then she just seemed to decide she was going in one day without a fuss and that was that. I could see her deliberately trying to make herself brave and go in. She told me she likes it when she’s there but would rather I was there too. She does three full mornings. I was waiting to see how things went and then wanted to hopefully increase, i’m not so sure now after the change in her.
I was always with her when she played with friends etc but she’s used to a wide array of people in her life, we’ve just not really been that fussed about going out without her, which probably sounds weird to some people

@Nutmeg321 Do you think so? I really thought this could be a good place. I have a few friends there with no issues and a neighbours boy, who she plays with, they all speak highly of the school (pre school feeds into the school)
Its the screaming of ‘Leave me alone’ and ‘Go away from me’ that day that surprised/shocked us as she hadn’t said that before.
I’ve asked her before just lightly if she likes the kids and teachers etc and if everyone’s nice to her, she says yes

She will give you the answers she thinks you want to hear if you ask direct questions.

You need to stop that and do some 'playing school' if you want to get a better idea of what goes on and how she feels. Let her play teacher. You can suggest that you, the preschooler, want to go to the loo, or pretend that you've spilled your drink or that you want a toy someone else is playing with - think of all sorts of scenarios that would provoke conflict with another child or physical needs that would run up against rules. Act them out and listen.

I also suspect she is imitating behaviour or speech she has seen or heard or repeating comments that have been directed at her.

Dealing with and processing unfriendly comments and behaviour is hard for a child who has always had a parent there to mediate and comfort, especially when her energy is taken up dealing with illness and her sleep is disturbed for whatever reason.

OP, a few posters have asked if anything different has happened recently and you said no.

However I am almost certain you are the person who posted a thread just over 2 weeks ago about your parents visiting you for a week. You wrote how stressful it was for everyone and how your DD was acting up during their visit.

The advice posters gave you on that thread was to seek therapy for yourself to enable you to set healthy boundaries and communicate more effectively. You agreed that you should have some counselling. Have you looked into that yet?

You have also posted a few similar threads about your parents visiting you frequently and staying for weeks at a time. I remember you describing how upsetting that is for you, you feel angry, resentful etc and that your home is filled with tension at such times.

Do you honestly not see that everything that has been going on is being picked up by your DD and affecting her too?

I can't say what is causing your DD's behaviour, no one here on Mumsnet can tell you that.

I do think you have to be open to all possibilities including the possibility that there are issues going on within her home environment that may be making her anxious.

I don't like the idea of a preschool carrying an upset child in.. no need for it and it doesn't inspire trust in the child. Added to that her big effort subsequently to go in 'bravely' ie don't make a fuss...could lead to a rupture in her attachment with you and the pushing down of feelings which eventually explode..

I agree - this is a trauma which will definitely have had an impact and it sounds like the timing fits. She may have soaked up the message that her feelings about pre-school were unacceptable which is terrifying for a small child, as they need to know that no matter how big and scary emotions feel to them, their adults are unphased by them and are a safe place to unleash them.

You’ve mentioned that she watches TV - how much? What programmes? What time of day? Can you notice any changes in behaviour if she has screen time withheld? This is something behavioural disorder specialists would look into.

My dc had a trial in a preschool and he was 3, had been home with me until then. Understandably he was teary. He was told he'd get a jelly if he didn't cry the next day 😡 He didn't go again.

It sounds really hard for you.

It might be helpful to see her behaviour as a communication of her distress rather than an expression of anger.

I think you need to reduce your demands on her while she is obviously struggling - so sit with her while she falls asleep if that makes the household calmer. Spend more time doing the things she wants to do, less time doing things that require her to use self-control.

It might be helpful for you and your partner to clearly plan how you each get a break at the weekend.

Try very hard to do things where you can enjoy each other's company, even if only for a short time. Let the small stuff go. She is small and struggling to regulate her emotions.

oh Op I remember my dd at 4 ..she was a nightmare. I once carried her out slung over my shoulder from nursery she was kicking and biting,she wanted to stay she hated me ..every fking day I had this for weeks,One day I got stopped by a teacher just coming in and I was walking with this monster and big tears were dripping down my face.I was done, The teacher was so kind to me it made me worse!!!! Overtired emotional and pathetic I was! It does get better I promise you. Well I am lying a bit to you but it gets better and different problems arise to test us lol ....You need to stop arguing,turn your back and say I am not talking to you until you are nice,,,keep going ,it will falll on deaf ears til something finally clicks. Its hard and \i feel for you.Dont give up your beautiful little girl is still there but shes learnign and processing so much her little brain is working overtime. Keep going you have got this...breath and give it time.Be kind to you your doing a good job bless you x

Star charts saved my life with DD at that age. Her behaviour was similar. You have to be consistent with them and there need to be immediate rewards (that day) as well as rewards you are working towards (at that age in the not too distant future though). I would focus more on rewarding good behaviour and time outs for bad. Calm time outs though. Not shouty time outs. I’ve heard good things about 123 Magic (think this is the name), but didn’t try it myself. The main thing with the star chart and time outs is consistency. Keep on even when things improve. The time out should be around one minute for each year of their age, I think. Keep taking her back and put her somewhere where she can’t chuck things around or hurt herself and use a timer that she can hear, so it’s clear when it’s finished. Hopefully this is a phase, but if it carries on, no harm in taking her to the docs. I put a lot down to age etc, but it turned out DD has ADHD, which ended up being diagnosed quite late due to me going against my instincts that something was different and listening to the it “just her age” comments. I’m not suggesting this is the case with your DD, but if you’re worried then listen to your instincts and go and see a professional.

I meant to add too I sent my dd full time even though it cost a fortune and she didnt need to go just for my sanity,I didnt beat myself up about it I needed to do this as I was struggling like you are.The staff loved having her she was an angel for them! Whilst she appeared to hate me!

OP - that sounds so much like my daughter, who will be 4 beginning of next year. To be fair to her she's not always awful (she's currently cuddling me and telling me she wants to marry me), but difficult behaviour has definitely ramped up in the last couple of months. She's a nightmare if she doesn't get her own way and can scream and cry for ages. She's really pushing boundaries right now. We don't let her get away with tantrumming to get her own way, so I'm not sure what the answer is.
The other day she wanted a bath just as we were trying to leave the house and there was no time for a bath. She ended up ripping all her clothes off, wailing for 30 minutes and had to be put in the car in just her pants.
I often start my day by being woken up by her shouting angrily/crying at me, for no particular reason. Earlier today she fell over and then blamed me (I was nowhere near her) and came over and hit me (she has since apologised once she calmed down) and then was just being generally horrible to me.

I am banking (hoping) on this being a phase. She's totally different from my DS as he was a lot calmer, never really had terrible twos for example... and I don't remember this age being quite so hard with him either! She's been high maintenance ever since she was a baby to be honest. Always wanted me, was an abysmal sleeper (bit better now but she still shares a bed with me)... in fact the only way she's been easier is that she got the hang of breastfeeding like a pro and ever since she started eating food she's eaten pretty much anything I put in front of her (DS struggled to BF and has always been a fussy eater).

I hope things get easier for you soon. And if you find a magic solution please drop me a PM!

I haven't read the full thread OP so sorry if this has been suggested already, but it sounds so similar to the situation with my DD (now 8) but she seemed to get worse around your DD's age and I always felt there was something not quite right...
Fast forward to now and she has just been diagnosed with ADHD. Might be worth looking at the traits and see how many boxes your daughter ticks. My DD doesn't tick all of them, but the impulsive behaviour you mentioned is something that stood out for me.
It's very hard and I feel your pain, but things have settled a bit for us now we've changed our behaviour around her accordingly and put a few strategies in place.