To think not everything is ‘misogyny’

[Cuppasoupmonster]

… and that the word is massively overused on here?

I’m getting quite tired of it if I’m honest, it feels like every other conversation the ‘misogyny’ card is whipped out and anyone who disagrees has ‘internalised misogyny’ (um no I just have a different opinion).

It’s becoming the ‘BeKind’ of feminism. Overused to the point it’s getting meaningless and irritating, and just used to ‘win’ any kind of nuanced topic without any proper discussion.

AIBU? 🤷🏼‍♀️

This thread is fucking pathetic.

Two women a week are killed by their current or former partner in this country and the services that help victims of DV have been systematically starved of funds for over a decade. Sexual harassment of women and girls is rife in our schools and universities. Young men are being radicalised by the Incel movement. Women are routinely dismissed, disbelieved or accused of having Mental Health issues when they report chronic pain and it takes years, sometimes decades, for conditions like Endometriosis to be diagnosed. We are told that if a Police Officer tries to arrest us we should "flag down a bus" so we don't get raped and murdered.

But here we are bickering amongst ourselves about the definitions of sexism and misogyny and "which is better".

We live in a patriarchal society. Misogyny is the hatred of women, and sexism is systemic discrimination against women. If you cannot see that one drives and perpetuates the other then that's because you don't want to see it and nothing anyone says on this thread will change your mind.

And for what it's worth OP, no I'm not tired of seeing the word misogyny on here. I'm tired of seeing actual misogyny and sexism in action IRL, in our media, in our institutions and what it does to the children and vulnerable communities I work with. Sometimes I envy those who seem blind to it, because it's exhausting.

Jesus Christ, why though? What difference does it make?

Well said neverbeenskiing.

This thread is a shining example of why women still need to talk about the awful misogyny (and it is misogyny) that's running through society.

Sometimes I envy those who seem blind to it, because it's exhausting.

This. When I walk into my DD's school and see another generation of boys raised to think 'girl' is an insult. I despair. She already knows which of her male classmates is sexist, and the lovely boys who aren't. Pre-teens FFS. It's everywhere.

@neverbeenskiing hear, hear.

This thread is my fault, by the way. I pointed out OP's misogyny on another thread and by the looks of it, I was right.

I have two DDs. Both have been sexually assaulted - short of rape but nevertheless. Don't tell me NAMALT.

Not everything is down to misogyny, but I find it harder to say whether or not the word is overused on Mumsnet.

I do think the use of the word, like the word 'fascist', or the term 'conspiracy theorist', are often used as a quick way to shut a conversation down.

They are used in ad hominem attacks, which seek to diminish the individual rather than open up discussion around difficult and controversial issues.

Not everything is misogyny, no.

But quite a lot of things are.

Including your thoughts as described via your posts.

This entire thread has been the most remarkable own goal, OP - and you will never see it.

There are none so blind….

@Cuppasoupmonster YANBU. I'm a woman. While I don't support criminalisation of abortion in our legal system, I see abortion as something distinct from other medical procedures because of the second life involved, the ethical "weight" of which increases over the course of the pregnancy. Like OP I am concerned about the high rate of abortions in our current society, which I see as the result of a culture which trivialises sex and reproduction and leaves women worse off for it. Having an abortion is not like going to the dentist and claiming it's exactly the same does nothing to help women who are struggling with medically & ethically complex decisions.

^ The above is not a misogynistic position unless "misogyny" doesn't have any meaning anymore. I'd prefer it if we could keep an impactful word to refer to actual woman-hate in our society such as violent pornography, BDSM culture / "choking" kinks, domestic violence etc. Not as a catch-all for people (incl. women) with different positions on complex ethical issues. But that's how it's used these days and I no longer find it useful.

On the plus side OP - I live a rich and joyful life with real-life friends who aren't terminally online and who don't call every second thing misogynistic. Highly recommend if Mumsnet is getting you down :)

Jesus Christ, why though? What difference does it make?

Well, presumably you wouldn’t endorse two people just deciding not to bother using anything because ‘hey ho, no worries, if push comes to shove we’ll just get an abortion’??

Well said.

Why wouldn’t I? I couldn’t care less - if the pregnant woman wants an abortion, why would I care what happened up to that point?

Why wouldn’t I? I couldn’t care less - if the pregnant woman wants an abortion, why would I care what happened up to that point?

A little thing called adults (of both sexes) behaving responsibly, or at least attempting to.

So they should be forced to give birth to a kid they don’t want? What happens to that kid?

Sometimes an abortion is adults behaving responsibly.

So they should be forced to give birth to a kid they don’t want? What happens to that kid?

Stop being goady/twisting my words. In the scenario I described, the couple haven't taken precautions because they can't be arsed. Of course they'd then have the right to consider abortion if the woman got pregnant and didn't want to be. But some people might argue that morally it was irresponsible of them both to take such a high risk of creating another life in the first place.

You're just determined to start an argument though, and it's boring so I'm moving on now.

Sometimes an abortion is adults behaving responsibly.

I agree with you. My reply to pumperthepumper was specific to a hypothetical scenario in which the woman was pregnant because neither had bothered using contraception.

100% this.

But you still haven’t answered why that matters. What difference does it make?

I missed this, apologies, although you still haven’t answered why it matters. They’re still creating an unwanted life regardless.

I missed this, apologies, although you still haven’t answered why it matters. They’re still creating an unwanted life regardless.

That's why I said in my first (I think) response that I felt the context in which abortion is used as contraception is significant. For me personally it's different if contraception has been used, because then at least an attempt has been made not to create that unwanted life in the first place (obviously with the caveat that contraception doesn't always work).

But in that scenario, an abortion is still potentially the most responsible course of action. In an ideal world everyone would make good choices all the time but we don't live in an ideal world. In the event that two people have made a mistake and failed to sort contraception but they don't want/can't care for a child then abortion is the responsible thing to do.

I honestly feel embarrassed that I’m again being forced to ask ‘why, though?’ What difference does it make - there’s either a wanted termination or an unwanted kid. Which would you chose for the careless couple?

So, if that happens, men are excused from taking their own precautions? It’s a joint venture!!

The amount of misandry that is on mn and is thought to be perfectly fine is equally as astonishing to me.