To think not everything is ‘misogyny’

[Cuppasoupmonster]

… and that the word is massively overused on here?

I’m getting quite tired of it if I’m honest, it feels like every other conversation the ‘misogyny’ card is whipped out and anyone who disagrees has ‘internalised misogyny’ (um no I just have a different opinion).

It’s becoming the ‘BeKind’ of feminism. Overused to the point it’s getting meaningless and irritating, and just used to ‘win’ any kind of nuanced topic without any proper discussion.

AIBU? 🤷🏼‍♀️

Monster - what is "chilling" is the huge number of abortions on demand that occur after consensual sex.

No one said it was

It isn’t misogynistic to say it’s preferable for women to use contraception rather than have an invasive and potentially upsetting abortion.

It is because you are holding women, not the men, accountable for the pregnancy.

You have since elaborated and taken the scenario into the realms of misogyny by explaining that you, as the woman, should totally expect to bear the weight of responsibility for contraception. As other posters have pointed out, there’s the misogyny.

But the act of forgetting the pill and getting pregnant is not misogyny.

I've never said it's completely my responsibility, but I do think as it's my life that will be changed under how parenting and birthing works that it is more my responsibility. I can't get out of being a mother but any man can get out of being a father, that's just how it works. Therefore the consequences for me and my life were far more risky than for him, it makes sense that I would care more about my own risk of pregnancy

What is chilling is that you would force women who require abortions to give birth against their will.

Who is a forced birther? Not me.
Have you seen the poster on this thread who hasn't decided what she thinks should happen when a woman is pregnant from rape, and there are consequences to sex so women should entirely expect to accept motherhood if they have sex?
To them life is so very precious, but only in situations where the woman consented to sex. In situations where the woman didn't consent, then there's room to possibly consider her own wishes about her body.

And that's before all the rubbish about men having consequences for sex too.

If a woman doesn't want to be pregnant she should have the autonomy to decide for her what she wants to happen to her body. It's not for me or anyone else to decide we should have more say over a woman's womb than her.

Why is support for abortion-as-a-right considered the feminist position?

I want to distinguish between rights-based and decriminalisation-based approaches to abortion, even though they might lead to the same laws in practice.

Decriminalisation-based is arguments like "abortion is taking a life, but the harm caused by e.g. driving women to back-alley abortions or miscarriages not being treated are worse, so let's keep it in the open". That's not what I'm talking about here.

Rights-based is arguments like "my body my choice". That women fundamentally have the right to control over their own bodies which will always outweigh the rights of the baby they are carrying.

I think there is a shift in feminism, one which Louise Perry for example has identified, towards looking at: what is the overall impact to women based on this policy/attitude, taking into account how society changes in response and indirect effects, rather than single-lens rights-from-first-principles.

Is a culture that encourages casual sex with no consequences, even social disapproval, for being either a single mother or having an abortion, really good for women overall? A society that asks nothing of men because sex is free and easy with no need to step up at any point?

If a woman makes this point, is that misogynistic? Just because they are not approaching feminism from the lens of "women's individual choices" but "women's overall welfare"?

This is where we differ.

The idea of a woman who has been raped and falls pregnant having access to a termination is to me far less chilling than a woman who has been raped and falls pregnant being forced to continue that pregnancy against her will and give birth against her will.

Those are the two scenarios you say you haven't made your mind up about yet.

That's what's chilling.

So why am I being lumped in with that?

Men do have consequences - no choice in abortion and potentially 18 years of CMS payments. That’s their consequences.

Monster - what is "chilling" is the huge number of abortions on demand that occur after consensual sex.

What are the numbers?

This. Being undecided on whether or not women should be allowed an abortion after rape is basically being undecided on whether or not you agree with reproductive slavery. And that is chilling.

This thread seems to be about the right to hold misogynistic views and not be called misogynistic. @niceduvet wants to be pro-forced-birth, which is a misogynistic position, but not have anyone point out that it is entirely misogynistic to remove abortion rights from women. Forcing women to give birth is misogyny. You can't adopt that position and then call yourself pro-life but not misogynistic. Not supporting abortion rights is a misogynistic stance. There are a lot of people, women included, who hold misogynistic views - which takes us back to the OP. Misogyny is everywhere, it should be pointed out and if you don't like your misogyny to be identified then don't express misogynistic views. But you don't get to say misogynistic things and object to being called a misogynist.

Men do have consequences - no choice in abortion and potentially 18 years of CMS payments. That’s their consequences.

I see, but CMS is only a tiny fraction of the real cost of a child, and they can walk away, easily avoid paying if they don't want to.

They have none of the physical consequences, no additional risks to their mental health from the pregnancy and birth, no risk of ongoing trauma, no time spent on reduced allowances (maternity pay isn't very high after all), no time out of their career, no worrying about fitting a job around the children, no worrying about unpaid leave when the children are unwell, no hits to their pension contributions, and get to maintain their earnings and earning potential.

Oh and if they want to go and have more children then they can have more children with a new partner and use that as an excuse to cut the financial obligations to existing children.

Not seeing the consequences for men here.

@GreenWasTheColour but I don’t think they are
misogynistic 🤷🏼‍♀️ and although I won’t pretend I’ve won the vote, 40% of posters here agree that misogyny is a term that is over used here.

Yeah a fiver a month is such an awful consequence

@Cuppasoupmonster

40% of posters are obviously as wrong as you then.

You keep claiming things which aren't mysoginist are being called mysoginy when they're not and denying things that are mysoginist are in fact, mysoginist

It's hilarious 😂

The actual statistics on abortion show the vast majority (over 85%) are non surgical, they take place in the first few weeks and most women use pills.
www.cbruk.org/abortionstatistics.

IDK how anyone extrapolates they are mostly a result of consensual sex, given how few women bother to report rape.

Oh and ignoring questions you cant answer

Well no but then you could argue men don’t get maternity leave, their role is quite secondary when it comes to newborns and they’re generally not held in the same regard as a mother in importance in a child’s life. It’s all swings and roundabouts.

😆 you’re on another thread right now saying women should care for their elderly relatives and stop shirking their responsibilities! Some feminist you are!

Quote me

I had consensual sex, oops I got pregnant. Well you knew that was a risk when you had consensual sex. Why does that then give you the right to end the life of the resulting consequences of your chosen actions?

Exactly. Well put.

Cuppasoup wants the right to hold misogynistic views but doesn't want to be called a misogynist.

Of course it does. My body, my choice.

What is my misogynistic view?