To think not everything is ‘misogyny’

[Cuppasoupmonster]

… and that the word is massively overused on here?

I’m getting quite tired of it if I’m honest, it feels like every other conversation the ‘misogyny’ card is whipped out and anyone who disagrees has ‘internalised misogyny’ (um no I just have a different opinion).

It’s becoming the ‘BeKind’ of feminism. Overused to the point it’s getting meaningless and irritating, and just used to ‘win’ any kind of nuanced topic without any proper discussion.

AIBU? 🤷🏼‍♀️

... and no Lola, I certainly don't think sex is just for creating babies - fun sex is great!

@niceduvet

I wasn't trying to catch you out with a gotcha.

I asked if you would want to change literally change the law if you would, rather than making it a conceptual moral issue.

Because I was interested in whether you would ideally want women and girls to have their right to a termination removed, or whether you just feel individually that it's 'wrong' to have a termination.

I was interested in whether you'd make that change in legal policy in the real world.

Yes, I think abortion on demand should be made illegal. With some exceptions. I don't want to dodge the question about exceptions, I just know that a discussion about them could run and run.

However, I do acknowledge the myriad of issues that would follow if it was made illegal - eg back street abortions, not enough adopters etc. and I accept that I don't have all the answers.

I don't see abortion as just "health care". I think calling it such just pushes the glaringly obvious moral questions around it under the carpet. I'm all for autonomy over your own body, but for me a baby growing inside your body, although dependant on your body, is not part of your actual physical body like your arm or your heart or your ear - it's a separate life in it's own right, so the women's right to autonomy over her own body argument (regarding abortion) falls down for me right there.

and still strongly believe abortion is a moral issue

Nobody’s asking you not to believe that, nor are they trying to dissuade you from your stance.

In fact, I will wholeheartedly agree with you - abortion very much IS a moral issue.

For you.

But morals aren’t absolute.

And abortion very much is not a moral issue for me. I don’t believe life is sacrosanct. I eat meat and swat flies, after all. Any anyone who says only human life is sacrosanct is the very definition of a hair-splitting hypocrite.

So you can go and live your life, knowing abortion is a moral issue, and never having one.

Meanwhile, other people won’t think that, and will continue to have abortions as and when needed, and there’s - unfortunately for you - nothing you can do about it.

Damn I debated this in school. I was about 15 or 16. The teacher introduced me to pro-life. It didn’t take me long to change my mind. 😂

and no Lola, I certainly don't think sex is just for creating babies - fun sex is great!
Except you think women should have a consequence for engaging in fun sex because even if they use contraception you think they should be forced into giving birth.
It's a pretty quick way to shut down women's sex lives and remove the fun because your position becomes: men have as much sex as you like, but women better accept being forced into having a baby

Do you believe life starts at conception?

Pro-life is intrinsically a misogynistic position because it penalises women for having sex unless every single time they do so, they are consenting to motherhood.

That is clearly ridiculous.

@InsertPunHere well no because contraception? It’s free, it’s highly effective, use it?!

Do you think all contraception is 100% effective @Cuppasoupmonster ?

@niceduvet

Ah.

So we don't have an answer as to why the lives of rapists babies are worthless. Why they deserve to die.

Poor things

No, I think it’s 99% effective. And I don’t believe hundreds of thousands of abortions a year are down to true contraceptive failures.

@Cuppasoupmonster and if it fails?

OK to take a life then?

Why is that?

What do you think they are down to then?

No

Some of them will be down to rape and assault and incest.

Some of them will be down to medical reasons

Some of them will be down to sheer carelessness

Some of them will be down to finances and a whole host of reasons.

What difference does it make?

The ending of a life is either OK or its not

If its not then it doesn't matter why you need to end it.

Anyone would think that the pro life position was more about policing women's bodies for the crime of being sexual beings.

On the one hand we've got the argument of the deserving women who should have abortions and those pesky immoral women who have abortions for the 'wrong' reasons, and on the other we have the line that sex is fine for fun but unless they're consenting to motherhood women shouldn't be having sex.
Meanwhile men are free to have as much sex as they like with whoever they like.

Meanwhile men are free to have as much sex as they like with whoever they like.

But they’re not are they? If they get someone pregnant they have zero say in whether she goes ahead it with it, and quite rightly. He is then legally bound to pay maintenance for 18 years. Which is as it should be.

it's a separate life in it's own right, so the women's right to autonomy over her own body argument (regarding abortion) falls down for me right there.

But that's not your argument. You think that some babies can be aborted. What about those babies lives. Because you argument that it is for the right of the unborn child fails the second you make the choice about the behaviour of the woman.

I dontwanna - Yes I do absolutely believe that life begins at conception. A life is forming right from the start obviously - what value you place on that clearly differs from person to person. For me, it is precious and has inherent value and worth just by existing.

He is then legally bound to pay maintenance for 18 years. Which is as it should be
Meanwhile in reality:

It's very easy for men to walk away in a way that mother's can't

If the father feels like playing ball they can pay very little maintenance that in no way compares to half the financial cost of a child, and can easily find ways to avoid paying maintenance. Some men will do the right thing obviously, but the ones who don't want to don't have to do much because our bar for them is so low.

They don't have the impact of taking leave from their job because there's a baby

They don't have the financial hit of being on maternity pay for a period of time.

They don't have to give or adjust their careers to reflect the fact they're a parent as it's the mothers who usually end up being the resident parent

They don't have to be the one taking unpaid leave when the child is poorly
They get to continue building their career,

They get to build their pension contributions and their earning potential because someone else is the primary parent.

Aside from the fact it's immoral to force a woman to give birth, the impact of forcing a woman to give birth is not equal between the mother and the father.

I dontwanna - Yes I do absolutely believe that life begins at conception. A life is forming right from the start obviously - what value you place on that clearly differs from person to person. For me, it is precious and has inherent value and worth just by existing

But your view is illogical because you're saying that some babies are more precious than others and it's fine to kill some babies but not others.

Your decision on which babies are precious and not seems to come down to your beliefs about a woman's behaviour.

@LolaSmiles yes, that's the thing. Either life begins at conception, in which case alul life is precious and all abortions should be banned, or.... not. You can't say that women who are careless with contraception shouldn't get abortion, but those who have been careful, or who have been raped are allowed an abortion. That's completely inconsistent. Nail your colours to the mast - you're either a forced birther or not.

For me, it is precious and has inherent value and worth just by existing.

Unless it is a baby that derives from rape. Then it has less value and can be aborted.

@niceduvet why are babies of raped mothers less worthy.

You have been consistently asked this and have not answered.

I agree with Cuppa here. The argument that men are free from the consequences of getting a woman pregnant is just not true.

@niceduvet

Yes I do absolutely believe that life begins at conception. A life is forming right from the start obviously - what value you place on that clearly differs from person to person. For me, it is precious and has inherent value and worth just by existing.

So why do you make an exception for babies conceived through rape?

How come their lives aren't precious with inherent value?