To think not everything is ‘misogyny’

[Cuppasoupmonster]

… and that the word is massively overused on here?

I’m getting quite tired of it if I’m honest, it feels like every other conversation the ‘misogyny’ card is whipped out and anyone who disagrees has ‘internalised misogyny’ (um no I just have a different opinion).

It’s becoming the ‘BeKind’ of feminism. Overused to the point it’s getting meaningless and irritating, and just used to ‘win’ any kind of nuanced topic without any proper discussion.

AIBU? 🤷🏼‍♀️

What about the unwanted kid though?

But I think the point @Pumperthepumper has repeatedly made (apologies if I’m misrepresenting here) is that abortion is legal, so there ends the morality police bit.

The law has decreed that abortion up to 24 weeks is a legitimate choice. So it’s not ‘ending life’ in the sense that murder is, not even close.

Once you’ve acknowledged this much, any further umming and ahhing about the rights and wrongs are simply irrelevant because they will centre on the ‘deservingness’ of the woman. That’s what makes it misogynistic. People say ‘oh well, it’s ok to abort if it’s because of rape’, thinking they’re making a moral point. But how is that a consideration? The effect on the embryo is the same. Those discussions are not about what’s best for the unborn; they’re about whether a woman ‘deserves’ an abortion. And that’s where OP’s example was coming from. Misogyny.

That’s exactly it @Lookingforbargains - that’s an excellent way to put it.

Thanks. I knew we were on the same page!

@niceduvet pregnancy and birth carry many risks (mental,emotional and physical) including death. A woman/girl might be dying. An actual human being.

Those discussions are not about what’s best for the unborn; they’re about whether a woman ‘deserves’ an abortion.

Yup. Deep down, the underlying reasoning (still) seems to be that women need to be punished for having sex. Even more so if they enjoyed sex.

There are many things that are "legal" that are very questionable. Just because something is "legal" it doesn't make it right IMO.

... and regarding adoption - someone's "unwanted baby" could become someone else's "very wanted and loved baby".

What about the unwanted kid though?

Did you adopt?

I'm adopted. Love my family, very lucky.

The idea that a girl or woman could have been forced to give birth to me against their will is horrific.

Or could become someone's (mentally and physically) punching bag while being expected to be forever grateful and everyone thinking the abusers are the ultimate heroes.

Been there. Done that.

@niceduvet

There are plenty of kids already looking for adoption.

Plenty of kids already born, dying every day.

What are you doing to prevent those deaths or help those kids get adopted?

Idon'twana - yes I get your point, but the actual number of cases where if a mother carries on with a pregnancy she will actually physically die, is very, very small compared to the number of abortion on demand cases for other reasons.

I recognise this is an agonising decision for many women to take and that women don't take the decision to abort lightly.

I personally think though that every life is precious including the unborn - who can't advocate for themselves.

What about damage from birth? Or postnatal depression?

... but I recognise my opinion won't be popular on MN!!

@niceduvet ultimately it's a choice. I choose the woman who is already here. I choose any children she may already have, who will be affected by the addition of an unwanted child to the family. And I trust women to make good decisions - if that decision is abortion, for whatever reason, then I trust the woman to assess that this is the best decision for her.

You clearly do not trust women to make good decisions.

Spot on.

Yes, about 700 . Minimal as you say. How do you think that number would change if abortion wasn't legal or easily accessible?

Or suicide or back street abortion resulting in harm to the mother.

Because, as we know, abortion will still happen.

No matter what those who want to remove autonomy from women wish.

@niceduvet
But what are you suggesting? Do you want to ban abortion? Or do you want to personally assess the merits of each abortion? Women have to have genuine choices.

Pumper - I had post-natal depression. Does the potential for PND mean that a child shouldn't be born? There is a lot of support and help for PND these days.

Idontwanna - I'm so sorry that you experienced that - that's awful. I'm sure there are many adopted kids who had a positive experience of adoption though.

Thats quite a reach. I’m saying that ‘death’ is not the worst thing that can happen. So you didn’t adopt? Do you think your postnatal depression would have been improved if you also didn’t want the baby? Or would that have made it worse?

I had a positive experience of being adopted.

I still find the idea of a girl or woman being coerced or forced to continue a pregnancy and give birth absolutely horrific.

Yes. However ,when we look at choice, and rights and SAFEGUARDING both women and their rights we don't look just at the (hypothetical) happy outcomes of rainbows and pink fluffy unicorns.

We look at risk, real life outcomes,statistics.

We know pregnancy and birth carry risks for women, from physical to mental. Now add in really not wanting that baby.

We know there is a risk,even if minimal of death.

We know there aren't enough adopters.

We know outcomes for children in care aren't great to put it mildly.

We know that banning abortions, only bans safe abortions. The likelihood of women being harmed,maimed, left disabled or infertile, and even dead increases when safe ,legal abortion is not available or easily accessible.

We know (from looking at other countries) that banning abortions increases the number of abandoned children to such a level that authorities can't cope and extreme abuse,neglect and damage takes place. That's without babies being abandoned in woods,bins, alleys etc and dying from exposure.

We know that a lot of abusive and controlling men use pregnancies to further trap women.

So looking at all that how can you actually believe that limiting or banning abortions, is not only a good idea ,but the one that's morally better?