To think not everything is ‘misogyny’

[Cuppasoupmonster]

… and that the word is massively overused on here?

I’m getting quite tired of it if I’m honest, it feels like every other conversation the ‘misogyny’ card is whipped out and anyone who disagrees has ‘internalised misogyny’ (um no I just have a different opinion).

It’s becoming the ‘BeKind’ of feminism. Overused to the point it’s getting meaningless and irritating, and just used to ‘win’ any kind of nuanced topic without any proper discussion.

AIBU? 🤷🏼‍♀️

No, the biggest detractors of the feminine and attackers of women are other women.
You may laugh @ bargains but it's not as amusing as your ridiculous example of child care and misogyny, some rather spectacular fallacious reasoning

You are, quite simply, wrong. The idea that women are largely responsible for undermining women (assuming that’s what you mean by ‘detractors of the feminine’) is a lie sold to you by the patriarchy. Sure, there are women who criticise and undermine women, but the problem doesn’t originate there.

Ironically, of woman-against-woman criticism, it’s your brand of ‘pick me’ behaviour that undermines women the most. You’re part of the problem, I’m afraid, but you didn’t start it. You see, this ‘Women aren’t oppressed, look at me enjoying all this freedom’ is man-pleasing rhetoric even if you don’t realise it. And in settling for this, and getting a Pat on the head from Men, you throw less privileged women under the bus.

Ironically, of woman-against-woman criticism, it’s your brand of ‘pick me’ behaviour that undermines women the most. You’re part of the problem, I’m afraid, but you didn’t start it. You see, this ‘Women aren’t oppressed, look at me enjoying all this freedom’ is man-pleasing rhetoric even if you don’t realise it. And in settling for this, and getting a Pat on the head from Men, you throw less privileged women under the bus.

This.

What I particularly love is being told that my real life experience of misogynistic systems is based on 'fallacious reasoning'.

Women who don't believe other women's experiences of misogyny ARE most definitely part of the problem.

When I was young and at university about to embark on a professional career I thought misogyny was 'overplayed to'. Then life happened and yes it exists, everywhere.

The only fallacious reasoning I have seen on this thread is the denial of the existence of the structures that enable it. And blaming women for misogyny.

Ironically, of woman-against-woman criticism, it’s your brand of ‘pick me’ behaviour that undermines women the most. You’re part of the problem, I’m afraid, but you didn’t start it. You see, this ‘Women aren’t oppressed, look at me enjoying all this freedom’ is man-pleasing rhetoric even if you don’t realise it. And in settling for this, and getting a Pat on the head from Men, you throw less privileged women under the bus.
Realising this several years ago was the moment that I started to question my liberal feminist beliefs.

Once you start to look and engage, and in my case having my arse handed to me on a couple of topics, there's a lot to notice and question.

That is your experience of the world, not mine. The patriarchy isn't an untruth however feminism, academics, and bandwagoners like to simplify the concept into a global phenomenon via a singular source 'Men'.
You have reified the concept of patriarchy.

Added to the act you have personally attacked me by calling me part of the problem.

I mean there’s definitely an imbalance and misogyny is definitely widespread and quite insidious. I’ve never said it isn’t. But equally I feel it’s overused to mean virtually any negative interaction between a man and a woman, and almost to make out anything a woman does cannot be her own responsibility but the result of having the strings pulled by a sinister male puppet master.

Exactly this.

There's no denying it exists but not EVERY negative statement about a woman or group of women is automatically misogynistic.

If anyone here watched MAFS..Thomas made an unpleasant comment about Whitney, who those who watch it, know he doesn't like her. A thread starts about how he is misogynistic. It was a single comment about ONE woman... not all women.

I can't understand this thought process.

The patriarchy isn't an untruth however feminism, academics, and bandwagoners like to simplify the concept into a global phenomenon via a singular source 'Men'.
You have reified the concept of patriarchy.

Of course, women discussing their oppression is what's reinforcing the patriarchy. 🙄

Best we trot along and don't talk about it too much because women talking about the problem is definitely the real problem here.

So you’re better because you can see that patriarchy doesn’t simply mean ‘men’? Yeah, I think we can all see that - but, to be fair, it is only perpetuated by people (some of them women, admittedly). I’ve already explained how misogyny is endemic and systemic; it’s not each individual man being a living embodiment of the patriarchy. What else are you objecting to?

I haven’t attacked you personally- but I’m sorry if I’ve offended you. I said you were part of the problem in that your views are indeed part of the problem. Not you as a person.

Added to the act you have personally attacked me by calling me part of the problem.

It wasn't me who called you part of the problem, I happen to agree with the poster who said that, but as she pointed out it wasn't a personal attack. I still think your views are part of the problem.

That is your experience of the world, not mine. The patriarchy isn't an untruth however feminism, academics, and bandwagoners like to simplify the concept into a global phenomenon via a singular source 'Men'.

I have not once blamed men for what I experience I have blamed misogyny which derives from a patriarchal society.

I actually said.: Recognising misogyny in society does not equate to a hatred of men even individually or as a class. I hate misogyny but don't hate men. But the simple truth is that misogyny can't be solved or reduced if women refuse to recognise it, downplay it, or worse, blame women for it.

I'd also really like to know what you mean, other than denying my experience, when you said it was based on a fallacious reality? I was complaining about patriachal systems, the gender pay gap, in my decision to be the one to give up work. I was talking about how the work place views middle age women who have had time off for child care (for whatever reason) as less employable. I was talking about my loss of career opportunity due to being the one who had to give up work because pay structures due to maternity leave meant it was the only financial option. It is not MEN who have caused this it is the patriarchal society we live in. A person who says that this difference is not due to misogyny is both denying my lived experience and expressing a misogynistic opinion.

The other examples of first hand experiences of misogyny I have had don't mean that I hate men, I hate the patriarchal systems which enable them. Why do you think it is that it is Mothers rather than Fathers who are convicted if their child doesn't attend school even when the failed attendance is due to unmet needs. Why does society determine it is the mothers role to get the child to school? Where is the falsehood in saying that the decision to convict these women is misogynistic.

And I agree with LolaSmiles why don't you think that women should be able to discuss the causes of our oppression? How can we address it if we can't discuss it?

I completely disagree that there's an imbalance of power in favour of men. Physical strength perhaps, but not 'power'.

Let me ask this of almost any woman who's in a relationship: Can you get your OH to do what you want?

Well who has the power then?

As to violence, the reason it's usually men who hurt women and not vice versa is due to biology not misogyny or society. Bullies hurt people who are weaker. It just happens to be that on average women are physically weaker than men, hence the male bullies will rather pick on women than on other men.

This can't be changed by 'men calling out' or any of that crap, as 'men' don't condone violence against others in the first place. In the same way that break ins and other theft can't be eradicated by any part of society 'calling out' or re-educating people.

It's a sad reality of the human condition that for the foreseeable future criminals will exist. This is despite civilised humanity not condoning crime in any way. And criminals will generally go for the easiest crime. That's not societal or misogynistic, but reality.

I completely disagree that there's an imbalance of power in favour of men.

Well, this is completely delusional. Yes, physical strength is the starting point, but men used it to build a world that promotes them over women and utilitises that strength (and reproductive imbalance) to keep it that way.

Sorry, I can’t really cope with this level of wilful blindness.

Let me ask this of almost any woman who's in a relationship: Can you get your OH to do what you want?

Uggh. Almost any woman? Really? No need for women's aid then is there?

2 women murdered per week, mostly by partners. This is not just because men are physically stronger and can't be controlled.

I completely disagree that there's an imbalance of power in favour of men. Physical strength perhaps, but not 'power'.

I mean this is an absolutely bizarre thing to say. If you really think this, you must be walking around with your eyes shut.

Let me ask this of almost any woman who's in a relationship: Can you get your OH to do what you want?

On an individual level, my partner and I don't 'get' the other to do what we want. We're equals so we talk and decide what to do. We both compromise equally.

Have you never been in an equal relationship?

Well who has the power then?

In my personal relationship, my male partner and I have equal 'power'.

That doesn't change the fact that in society as a whole, men have more 'power' than women.

Have you seen who’s in charge of almost all countries, almost all organisations, almost all boards?

Men rule the world.

When we were dividing up childcare, it didn’t occur to him that he could work part-time, only that I could work part-time. Because that’s what society models for us everywhere we look. And the reason for that is that childcare has traditionally been seen as low-value work, and therefore appropriate for women. Because women are low-value. Because… you guessed it - misogyny!!
There could be many other reasons in this scenario. He could be earning more so it makes sense the lower earner is PT. It could be that dad believes mum would prefer to be at home more because she has been home more during her maternity. You are jumping to conclusion assuming it's a social model and childcare seen as lower value. Maybe that's how your husband sees it but that's between you and him. All you needed to say was that your intentions had always been to go back to work FT, end of. What make it a big think and drawing conclusions that suits your agenda.

@SlickShady

I completely disagree that there's an imbalance of power in favour of men. Physical strength perhaps, but not 'power'.

Are you secure enough to read the stats below and concede that you got this wrong?

UK (2021):
Just eight of the CEOs in the top 100 UK companies were women. Nevertheless, this was the highest figure for the female FTSE board report since it was first published in 1999.

US (2021):
41 of the companies in the 2020 Fortune 500 are led by female CEOs or 8.2%. The Fortune 500 ranks America’s largest companies and has long been seen as a microcosm of U.S. business at large.

Sure, there's no imbalance of power in favour of men... they just happen to hold 92% of leading companies in both the UK and US, as just two examples.

I've got a horrible feeling that when you mentioned women having the power in relationships with men (seemingly not understanding it's possible to be equals) and 'get them to do' what the woman wants, you were just talking about your archaic view that 'women use sex to get what they want'. A

He could be earning more so it makes sense the lower earner is PT.......You are jumping to conclusion assuming it's a social model and childcare seen as lower value.

Why do you think the man might be earning more? Don't you think that has anything to do with the patriarchal systems? Don't you believe that a gender pay gap exists? Don't you believe that women of child bearing / rearing age are still overlooked by some employers either in recruitment or progression opportunities because of assumptions that they will be the ones to take time off for child care? There are laws in place to prevent these things but you are completely naive if you think they don't happen. Before I was the one forced to give up my career for the very reason that I earned less than my husband doing an identical career to me because I'd taken time off to have babies, I used to advise employers on how to avoid employing women with kids with the least risk of being sued under the Equality Act FFS!

I’m about to be monumentally rude, but …

OP if this is the level of debate coming in to support your side, well, it’s a bit embarrassing really, isn’t it?

Even you realise how wide of the mark this is.

Right…..?

This thread has gone from funny and bizarre to utterly ridiculous.

How are we at a point where any action that might demonstrate that society is inherently patriarchal with women being oppressed at almost every level is nothing more than a coincidence and it just makes sense that women are pushed to one side and put back in their box?

Ah, so each individual couple makes an individual decision completely independently. What a coincidence it is that the overwhelming majority of part-time working parents are women!!

People need to stop looking at individual scenarios, and lift up.

Look at what’s happening on a widespread, population-based, societal basis.

Looking at individuals isn’t going to show or prove anything.

I honestly always, always feel that this debate gets bogged down, getting nowhere - because one side looks at how things are for them, maybe their friends and family - and extrapolates ‘all is well’.

Whereas the other side, lifts up and looks down at the whole - the bigger picture. Sees patterns of behaviour, etc.

I am surrounded by good men. A loving, kind, gentle father. An amazing DH who’s a great husband and father. A lovely DB, BILs, FIL. My friends’ husbands are all great, and my DH’s friends are, too. Good, decent men. Last but not least, I have a lovely DS.

None of this stops me from being able to see that while all these individuals are fantastic, all of us - men and women - live in a patriarchal society, unfortunately steeped in misogyny.

This doesn’t mean individual men are to blame. They’re not. Men as a class are, though.

Saying men are less emotional and more logical - when our own eyes prove to us on the daily that this is categorically untrue (men, especially young men, are known to make stupid, risky, ill-thought out decisions all the time, and they are also wildly emotional - just in a different (often more threatening) way than women) - is the absolute definition of internalised misogyny.

*Have you seen who’s in charge of almost all countries, almost all organisations, almost all boards?

Men rule the world*

it's still a minority of men though but people use that to beat the 3 billion men on the planet.

The point is that it's men. Not women. Not half and half. <headdesk>

So who rules the world, though? Men or women?

Wow this got ridiculous fairly quickly.

I find it ironic that some women spend so much time defending men. Especially since so many arguments seem to come straight from the incel/mra handbook.I wonder how many men would so vehemently defend women on male dominated forums.