Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think not everything is ‘misogyny’

905 replies

Cuppasoupmonster · 29/10/2022 16:11

… and that the word is massively overused on here?

I’m getting quite tired of it if I’m honest, it feels like every other conversation the ‘misogyny’ card is whipped out and anyone who disagrees has ‘internalised misogyny’ (um no I just have a different opinion).

It’s becoming the ‘BeKind’ of feminism. Overused to the point it’s getting meaningless and irritating, and just used to ‘win’ any kind of nuanced topic without any proper discussion.

AIBU? 🤷🏼‍♀️

OP posts:
tkmethrthis · 31/10/2022 10:30

Or they might just have their own opinions? I suppose that’s unfathomable to you though.

No, but is clearly is unfathomable to you that conditioning of women and girls to be kind to men in a patriarchal society happens,

Cuppasoupmonster · 31/10/2022 10:32

tkmethrthis · 31/10/2022 10:30

Or they might just have their own opinions? I suppose that’s unfathomable to you though.

No, but is clearly is unfathomable to you that conditioning of women and girls to be kind to men in a patriarchal society happens,

yes I definitely said that didn’t I, in those exact words.

OP posts:
tkmethrthis · 31/10/2022 10:33

yes I definitely said that didn’t I, in those exact words.

I didn't say you did, lol.

Lookingforbargains · 31/10/2022 10:36

psycho2 · 31/10/2022 10:28

op this is mn you were never going to win with this thread but I agree,we support misandry here.

Remember the rules:

  1. If they walk behind you they are terrifying you and trying to assert their dominance.
  1. if they want to be sensible with cash they are financially abusive,
  2. if they are pissed of over something and challenge you on it they are bullies,
  3. if a group of men socializes together they are being misogynistic and spend all that time belittling women. That's the main reason they meet up.
  4. if any double standard against men is called out on mn or a poster is being nasty to one it's ok as men have caused all the problems in the world since time began so every man must pay,
6.if they are white they are very privileged and live in a mansion...
  1. If they chat to a woman in any way they are creeps.
  2. if they leave a dirty cup out then LTB.

I don’t get what’s in it for you to peddle this bullshit? Or do you really not see the imbalance in society? Open your eyes.

Cuppasoupmonster · 31/10/2022 11:08

Lookingforbargains · 31/10/2022 10:36

I don’t get what’s in it for you to peddle this bullshit? Or do you really not see the imbalance in society? Open your eyes.

I mean there’s definitely an imbalance and misogyny is definitely widespread and quite insidious. I’ve never said it isn’t. But equally I feel it’s overused to mean virtually any negative interaction between a man and a woman, and almost to make out anything a woman does cannot be her own responsibility but the result of having the strings pulled by a sinister male puppet master.

I don’t think removing agency and power from women by telling them everything is the fault of men and they have little control because of this is in any way good for us.

Equally if I did try to ‘educate women about contraception’ etc like PP suggested, it would be ‘victim blaming, why should women use invasive methods’ etc.

Fuck it, I don’t want to spend my life passively relying on men not to be arseholes or less than perfect. I’ve always believed I have more agency over myself than that.

OP posts:
yubgummy · 31/10/2022 12:18

Well said @Cuppasoupmonster

Topgub · 31/10/2022 12:21

@Cuppasoupmonster

Women having agency and not always being victims doesn't negate mysoginy and sexism

You haven't been able to give any examples of mysoginy being over used or even used inappropriately.

Lookingforbargains · 31/10/2022 12:37

@Cuppasoupmonster

I mean there’s definitely an imbalance and misogyny is definitely widespread and quite insidious. I’ve never said it isn’t.

I just don’t get why, if you know this about misogyny, you would start this thread at all.

You know there’s a massive imbalance and it’s not in women’s favour, and yet you choose to start a thread drawing attention to a few (yet to be identified) times when women said there was misogyny but there wasn’t 🤷‍♀️

Sorry - I don’t buy it.

It’d be like knowing that, say, vast numbers of rapes go unpunished, but deciding to start a thread about the vanishingly tiny number of times a woman falsely called rape. And then not having any examples. It makes no sense.

Cuppasoupmonster · 31/10/2022 12:41

Lookingforbargains · 31/10/2022 12:37

@Cuppasoupmonster

I mean there’s definitely an imbalance and misogyny is definitely widespread and quite insidious. I’ve never said it isn’t.

I just don’t get why, if you know this about misogyny, you would start this thread at all.

You know there’s a massive imbalance and it’s not in women’s favour, and yet you choose to start a thread drawing attention to a few (yet to be identified) times when women said there was misogyny but there wasn’t 🤷‍♀️

Sorry - I don’t buy it.

It’d be like knowing that, say, vast numbers of rapes go unpunished, but deciding to start a thread about the vanishingly tiny number of times a woman falsely called rape. And then not having any examples. It makes no sense.

You don’t have to ‘buy it’.

I think misogyny is vastly overused on MN and read into many situations where there is no evidence for it.

OP posts:
Cuppasoupmonster · 31/10/2022 12:41

Topgub · 31/10/2022 12:21

@Cuppasoupmonster

Women having agency and not always being victims doesn't negate mysoginy and sexism

You haven't been able to give any examples of mysoginy being over used or even used inappropriately.

Shall I find some threads to help you along a bit?

OP posts:
vivainsomnia · 31/10/2022 12:44

This is such a lazy argument and it’s trotted out on here all the time. How come it suits the other parent to have a partner looking after the kids, then suddenly it doesn’t and that’s solely the problem of the person doing the childcare up until that point? Weird that you think contraception is equality but not childcare
That's the perfect example of what PP.is trying to say.

It couldn't possibly be a woman decision to only work PT because let's face it, its one choice most mum would make. Oh no, it has to be the partner's fault somehow. He shouldn't have suggested it, he shouldn't refuse to help at home so mum can work FT. He should have worn a condom e ery time they had sex in case she lied about being on the pill etc...

In the vast majority of cases, they are faults on both parties. Mistakes made by both, choices that suited each better.

On MN though, even knowing nothing at all of the situation, it will always come back to what HE did wrong.

Lookingforbargains · 31/10/2022 12:45

@Cuppasoupmonster
But where ARE the examples?! You have to admit it’s be more convincing if you could find some?

Meanwhile, the evidence for the existence of misogyny is all around us.

Topgub · 31/10/2022 12:46

Yeah go on then

lifeturnsonadime · 31/10/2022 12:55

I don’t think removing agency and power from women by telling them everything is the fault of men and they have little control because of this is in any way good for us.

This demonstrates a massive misunderstanding of what misogyny is.

The fact that women have agency isn't evidence of its absence.

Women can have control of our lives within the confines of a patriarchal society which favours males.

Take the current removal of our spaces in favour of trans identifying males. Any woman who stands up against that is being framed as a bigot because women are supposed to 'be kind'. Heaven forbid the males should have to sort out their own issues of violence against other non gender conforming males.

Women don't have the agency to solve this problem. We are not misandrists for pointing it out.

I really struggle with any woman who tries to downplay the impact of misogyny.

Your points about equality of choice over child care particular rankled when you were suggesting that women who decide to work part time to be child carers don't fall victim of patriarchal structures which mean that it is difficult to return to work. It's wilful blindness. In my own life I was the one who chose to give up work when our children with disabilities weren't in school for various reasons. My DH and I both have the same career but BECAUSE of absences for maternity leave and because of inequality in pay he earned more than me for doing the same work. This means that on a financial basis alone he was the right person to go to work. Now our children are more settled 5 years down the line, I don't have the ability to go back to work at the same level as him because no one is interested in a middle aged woman with a massive gap in experience and skills. When we both worked full time I still carried the mental load. I'm sure some women look at me and think I'm lazy or enjoy being carried by a man financially when that could't be further from the truth. I hate not having financial independence. I hate that my career is the one in tatters because it made more sense for me to be the one to give work up. This is a common story.

Our children are autistic and struggled with school attendance, it is mothers, not fathers who are blamed for that. It is disproportionately Mothers who have been fined and imprisoned.

Agencies surrounding children with disabilities and mental health services treat fathers differently from mothers and treat the fathers with more respect. There are times my husband has told them point blank that he gives me his entire trust in my capacity to make decisions about OUR children because they have not taken me seriously in his absence. This is a common story.

And to suggest that pointing these things out is akin to man hatred is just really silly. Recognising misogyny in society does not equate to a hatred of men even individually or as a class. I hate misogyny but don't hate men. But the simple truth is that misogyny can't be solved or reduced if women refuse to recognise it, downplay it, or worse, blame women for it.

Lookingforbargains · 31/10/2022 12:57

@vivainsomnia

It couldn't possibly be a woman decision to only work PT because let's face it, its one choice most mum would make. Oh no, it has to be the partner's fault somehow. He shouldn't have suggested it, he shouldn't refuse to help at home so mum can work FT.

I think maybe the problem is that some posters can only understand misogyny as each individual man hating all women. It’s not like that. My husband isn’t a misogynist, but he operates in a misogynistic world, as do I. When we were dividing up childcare, it didn’t occur to him that he could work part-time, only that I could work part-time. Because that’s what society models for us everywhere we look. And the reason for that is that childcare has traditionally been seen as low-value work, and therefore appropriate for women. Because women are low-value. Because… you guessed it - misogyny!! An action doesn’t have to come from an individual’s hatred for women for it to be motivated on some level by misogyny.

Misogyny is systemic. It’s baked in.

SleeplessInEngland · 31/10/2022 12:59

RambamThankyouMam · 29/10/2022 16:16

Nope. Most things are misogyny.

I think if you lead a relatively safe and normal life, you don't often get to see exactly how much men hate us, and how institutional structures are stacked against us.

I don't think this posts says what you meant it to say.

emptythelitterbox · 31/10/2022 13:14

Cuppasoupmonster · 30/10/2022 17:52

I’m not ignoring it, I’ll do a proper reply later, it was a lot of info and I’m dipping in and out of making dinner.

Behavioural tendencies - men tend to be more aggressive, logical in their thinking and less emotive. Women tend to be more emotive in their thinking, less aggressive and more nurturing. That sort of thing.

Men logical and less emotive?

You mean the men that do dangerous and impulsive things?
The men that double double on the stupidest things even when they are flat out wrong?
The ones that stomp about, shout, sulk, get into fights, murder people?

Yep, perfectly logical and less emotive.

Deadringer · 31/10/2022 13:23

Men logical and less emotional? Watch them when their team are losing. Or winning. They are very emotional, and quite openly so, when it's stuff they care about.

RedAppleGirl · 31/10/2022 13:49

RambamThankyouMam · 29/10/2022 16:16

Nope. Most things are misogyny.

I think if you lead a relatively safe and normal life, you don't often get to see exactly how much men hate us, and how institutional structures are stacked against us.

I think you need to grow up. Get out of that head of yours.
I have a well-paid career, a home, cars, and a man, I like sex, and I can do what I want when I want.
What some women don't like are accountability and responsibility.
Own your choices and your life.

lifeturnsonadime · 31/10/2022 14:03

RedAppleGirl · 31/10/2022 13:49

I think you need to grow up. Get out of that head of yours.
I have a well-paid career, a home, cars, and a man, I like sex, and I can do what I want when I want.
What some women don't like are accountability and responsibility.
Own your choices and your life.

Are you saying because you have all of those things that misogyny doesn't exist?

Are you saying that the job of feminists are done and women and girls are treated as equal in society in all aspects?

Are you saying that women who believe that the patriarchal society has caused them to struggle in ways that men wouldn't have done, such as described in my post at 12.55 above are just not taking enough accountability or responsibility for themselves?

Lookingforbargains · 31/10/2022 14:04

RedAppleGirl · 31/10/2022 13:49

I think you need to grow up. Get out of that head of yours.
I have a well-paid career, a home, cars, and a man, I like sex, and I can do what I want when I want.
What some women don't like are accountability and responsibility.
Own your choices and your life.

😂😂

LolaSmiles · 31/10/2022 14:12

lifeturnsonadime and Lookingforbargains
Great posts.

Especially this:
Misogyny is systemic. It’s baked in.
And this:
Recognising misogyny in society does not equate to a hatred of men even individually or as a class. I hate misogyny but don't hate men. But the simple truth is that misogyny can't be solved or reduced if women refuse to recognise it, downplay it, or worse, blame women for it.

DH and I both decided to share parental leave then work part time and flexibly after having children. This is rare, but the difference in response was huge. It was assumed I'd give up work or go part time, because I'm mum and that's what mums do. DH was taken back by the level of bizarre adoration for how brilliant he is as a parent to be 'helping out' at home and the number of people who were concerned that he'd be sacrificing his career. Nobody said the same to me, and I was the higher earner! It was an eye opener to DH who had previously not quite 'got' how prevalent some misogynistic attitudes were because lots of them are so subtle but once you notice them it's difficult to not notice.

Like you both, I struggle with women minimising the systemic oppression of women.

RedAppleGirl · 31/10/2022 14:46

lifeturnsonadime · 31/10/2022 14:03

Are you saying because you have all of those things that misogyny doesn't exist?

Are you saying that the job of feminists are done and women and girls are treated as equal in society in all aspects?

Are you saying that women who believe that the patriarchal society has caused them to struggle in ways that men wouldn't have done, such as described in my post at 12.55 above are just not taking enough accountability or responsibility for themselves?

If you believe (Belief being the denominator), then expect to be challenged on those beliefs. Moreover, life can be challenging, and at times unpleasant, is this systemic and only from men? No, the biggest detractors of the feminine and attackers of women are other women.
You may laugh @ bargains but it's not as amusing as your ridiculous example of child care and misogyny, some rather spectacular fallacious reasoning.

monsteramunch · 31/10/2022 14:55

No, the biggest detractors of the feminine and attackers of women are other women.

The biggest attackers of women are other women?

While you may not have meant physically attacked, in a literal sense that couldn't be further from the truth.

Two women a week are murdered by current or former male partners in the UK.

And it's not misandry to acknowledge that figure and extrapolate that males are victimising, assaulting and murdering females at a terrifying rate. It's fact.

I'm not saying all men are murderers of violent criminals. Not at all. I'm saying far too many are and as a result, two women are murdered by current or former male partners in the UK every week.

Surely that figure suggests a widespread disregard for and contempt for women from (not all) men. A situation deeply rooted in misogyny in that it reflects the belief that a woman should behave how a man wants her to, or she will face consequences that could harm or even kill her.

Some women abuse men too, absolutely. Alex's story is heartbreaking and makes me sob every time I watch it. But the frequency of male on female violent crime vs female on male violent crime UK wide, and worldwide, is still a different ball game entirely.

tkmethrthis · 31/10/2022 14:56

You may laugh @ bargains but it's not as amusing as your ridiculous example of child care and misogyny, some rather spectacular fallacious reasoning

Bloody hell.

None so blind as those who will not see.

We have equality laws, doesn't stop employers from not wanting to employ women of childbearing age. Guess you will tell me that wasn't real either when I was asked to advise by multiple employers how to avoid it without attracting tribunal claims?

If there is equality of childcare why would employers even ask these questions?

Swipe left for the next trending thread